Objectivist or Subjectivist? Give Me a Break

[microstrip]

Article about accuracy vs. good sound: http://www.edn.com/electronics-blog...o--Is-accurate-sound-overrated--?cid=EDNToday

Don,

Nothing new - just the usual anti audiophile cliches. The author does not define how he checks for accuracy and only refers vaguely to the "original source". Is it the recording or the real event?

Besides, Steve Guttenberg only refers to headphones and the EDN author abusively generalizes his findings to audio transducers and consumer audio. Sound engineers do not balance recordings to be listened using headphones and forgetting this aspect compromises the scope of the EDN and Audiophiliac articles.

 

[jkeny]

Here's a much more reasoned view about amplifier differences from someone who is known to be an objectivist, Rod Elliot & I agree with his view expressed in this article http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm

He outlines the amplifier measurements he determines are important to possibly characterise an amplifier with regard to sound quality. In his conclusions he notes this

There is a test method (or a series of methods) that will allow us to obtain a suite of tests that makes sense to designers and listeners alike, so we can get closer to the ideal amplifier, namely the mythical "straight wire with gain", but from the listener perspective rather than the senseless repetition of tests that seem to have no bearing on the perceived quality of the amp. This is not to say that the standard tests are redundant (far from it), but they do not seem to reveal enough information.

For this to succeed, the subjectivists must be convinced, as must the "objectivists". We are all looking for the same thing - the flawless reproduction of sound - but the two camps have drifted further and further apart over the years.

There is a test method (or a series of methods) that will allow us to obtain a suite of tests that makes sense to designers and listeners alike, so we can get closer to the ideal amplifier, namely the mythical "straight wire with gain", but from the listener perspective rather than the senseless repetition of tests that seem to have no bearing on the perceived quality of the amp. This is not to say that the standard tests are redundant (far from it), but they do not seem to reveal enough information.

These are my musings, and I am open to suggestions for other testing methods that may reveal the subtle differences that undeniably exist between amplifiers. At the moment we have a chasm between those who can (or think they can) hear the difference between a valve and an opamp, a bipolar junction transistor and a MOSFET, or Brand "A" versus Brand "B", and those who claim that there is no difference at all.

The fact that there are differences is obvious. The degree of difference and why there are differences is not. It would be nice for all lovers of music (and the accurate reproduction of same) if we can arrive at a mutually agreeable explanation for these differences, that is accurate, repeatable, and measurable.

 

[Robh3606]

And just for fun

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-57499840-47/who-wants-perfectly-accurate-sound/

Rob

 

[rbbert]

I thought NWAVguy's blog pretty well covered the first 85 pages of this thread, and in about the same number of words.

 

[NorthStar]

I thought NWAVguy's blog pretty well covered the first 85 pages of this thread, and in about the same number of words.

-----Zap.

 

[DonH50]

Say it is not so Don. Even though it took over 27 hours and it was done by proxy the first insult was hurled.

I must confess I saw the headline in one of my techie newsfeeds and have not actually read the article yet. Just seemed appropriate for this thread. Hoping to read it later but have rehearsal tonight so probably tomorrow.

FWIWFM, IME and all that jazz, anybody holding an extreme position on anything is probably wrong...

On amplifier differences, I tend to think most SS amps working well within spec sound very similar, same for most tube amps, but the real difference lies in how they handle a real speaker load and especially at higher volumes. Again, IMO/IME/whatever. Sometimes I have walked into a room and picked out two amps when the showroom guy swapped them blind for me, other times much more difficult.

EDIT: OK, skimmed it quickly. Too many holes in it, on both sides, to make it out for more than a (somewhat rambling) blog about somebody else's blog... I prefer to start acurate and then refine to taste; most any audio thread will reveal tastes vary considerably among listeners. Also too many variables as things that start out accurate are modified heavily by the other components, speakers, room, and listener. However, and perhaps this is just because I am an engineer and want to believe, I think most if not all audio designers are going for accuracy in their designs. Be foolish not to given all the other variables. All IMO - Don

 

[FrantzM]

I must confess I saw the headline in one of my techie newsfeeds and have not actually read the article yet. Just seemed appropriate for this thread. Hoping to read it later but have rehearsal tonight so probably tomorrow.

FWIWFM, IME and all that jazz, anybody holding an extreme position on anything is probably wrong...

On amplifier differences, I tend to think most SS amps working well within spec sound very similar, same for most tube amps, but the real difference lies in how they handle a real speaker load and especially at higher volumes. Again, IMO/IME/whatever. Sometimes I have walked into a room and picked out two amps when the showroom guy swapped them blind for me, other times much more difficult.

EDIT: OK, skimmed it quickly. Too many holes in it, on both sides, to make it out for more than a (somewhat rambling) blog about somebody else's blog... I prefer to start acurate and then refine to taste; most any audio thread will reveal tastes vary considerably among listeners. Also too many variables as things that start out accurate are modified heavily by the other components, speakers, room, and listener. However, and perhaps this is just because I am an engineer and want to believe, I think most if not all audio designers are going for accuracy in their designs. Be foolish not to given all the other variables. All IMO - Don

This posts should be a sticky!!

This I am repeating for others to re-read

FWIWFM, IME and all that jazz, anybody holding an extreme position on anything is probably wrong...

 

[NorthStar]

---Ya, me too I like Don's post from above. ...It rings right.

 

[Raffles]

This posts should be a sticky!!

This I am repeating for others to re-read

FWIWFM, IME and all that jazz, anybody holding an extreme position on anything is probably wrong...

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

George Bernard Shaw

 

[NorthStar]

---Only time will give man the certainty that we was wrong all along - Bob (me)

 

[microstrip]

On amplifier differences, I tend to think most SS amps working well within spec sound very similar, same for most tube amps, but the real difference lies in how they handle a real speaker load and especially at higher volumes. Again, IMO/IME/whatever. Sometimes I have walked into a room and picked out two amps when the showroom guy swapped them blind for me, other times much more difficult.

Don,

What do you call "working well within spec"? Is it something measurable or just a magic specification? And the expression "handle a real speaker load" sounds very nice, but how do you also measure it?

Most people try to explain the differences between amplifiers to clipping behavior or current limitation, but I disagree. I think it is still influence of the old school of though that considered that the soft clipping could explain all the differences between SS and tubes sound.

I always calibrate my systems, do not listen loud, use powerful amplifiers (minimum 140W) and have found that most of the sound characteristics of one amplifier keeps stable and unchanged with speakers having 83dB/W or 92dB/W, 4 or 8 ohm, if they do not clip or distort.

I hope you do not consider my post an extreme position.

 

[JackD201]

Don,

What do you call "working well within spec"? Is it something measurable or just a magic specification? And the expression "handle a real speaker load" sounds very nice, but how do you also measure it?

Most people try to explain the differences between amplifiers to clipping behavior or current limitation, but I disagree. I think it is still influence of the old school of though that considered that the soft clipping could explain all the differences between SS and tubes sound.

I always calibrate my systems, do not listen loud, use powerful amplifiers (minimum 140W) and have found that most of the sound characteristics of one amplifier keeps stable and unchanged with speakers having 83dB/W or 92dB/W, 4 or 8 ohm, if they do not clip or distort.

I hope you do not consider my post an extreme position.

Since my circle of friends range from DIYers to fellow high end maniacs, my experience is different. That being more in line with Don's experience. For example, conventional wisdom is that low powered SET amplifiers are lovely but rolled off in the extremes. Not the case with only 5 watts into a 105dB sensitive loudspeaker with relatively flat impedance. There are dynamics and extension in spades. Take the other extreme, high powered amplification into high efficiency speakers. Now it's the distortion spectrum that makes the difference. Suddenly Class A topology is more pleasing than AB or most Ds. Something not as big an issue with speakers of low to moderate sensitivity.

As such, I find an amplifier's sound can not be described in it's own terms. Electrical performance yes, sound no. You only get the sound with a loudspeaker after all.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I always calibrate my systems, do not listen loud, use powerful amplifiers (minimum 140W) and have found that most of the sound characteristics of one amplifier keeps stable and unchanged with speakers having 83dB/W or 92dB/W, 4 or 8 ohm, if they do not clip or distort.

Please tell me about these speakers, 83dB/W or 92dB/W, 4 or 8 ohm, that's sound characteristics are so consistent that they allow you to hear that the sound characteristics of the amp driving them remains stable and unchanged as you change speakers.

Tim

 

[terryj]

Don,

What do you call "working well within spec"? Is it something measurable or just a magic specification?

I am sure you will be able to understand it, I have faith in you!

And the expression "handle a real speaker load" sounds very nice, but how do you also measure it?

I am sure you will be able to understand it, I have faith in you! I am sure people can measure it with their ears (you know, detect the presence or absence of something, that is a measurement no?)

I always calibrate my systems, do not listen loud, use powerful amplifiers (minimum 140W) and have found that most of the sound characteristics of one amplifier keeps stable and unchanged with speakers having 83dB/W or 92dB/W, 4 or 8 ohm, if they do not clip or distort.

There ya go! I knew my faith in you was justified.

You measured it, why the need to ask Don?

It was working within spec, not magic speculation after all. Was that a deliberate question?

 

[microstrip]

Please tell me about these speakers, 83dB/W or 92dB/W, 4 or 8 ohm, that's sound characteristics are so consistent that they allow you to hear that the sound characteristics of the amp driving them remains stable and unchanged as you change speakers.

Tim

Tim,
Just an example - Dynaudio Consequence mk2, Soundlabs A1s, JMlab Grande Utopia or Wilson Maxx3. Listen to a Dartzeel SS amplifier through them - it will keep its characteristic basic sound. Then listen to the Devialet. All these speakers sound very different, but you will be able to identify the main characteristics of these two very different sounding amplifiers in all of them.

 

[microstrip]

I am sure you will be able to understand it, I have faith in you!



I am sure you will be able to understand it, I have faith in you! I am sure people can measure it with their ears (you know, detect the presence or absence of something, that is a measurement no?)



There ya go! I knew my faith in you was justified.

You measured it, why the need to ask Don?

It was working within spec, not magic speculation after all. Was that a deliberate question?

Terryj,

Could you spend your religious comments on some one else posts? Perhaps I would enjoy them in a humour forum, but not in WBF.

 

[terryj]

Terryj,

Could you spend your religious comments on some one else posts? Perhaps I would enjoy them in a humour forum, but not in WBF.

Strangely enough (?) this has had an impact. (maybe the correct spelling of humor??)

I am at least glad you saw that I was trying to keep it light.

Do you want to start again? See, from where I sit, your post to Don was deliberate. You knew full well what he meant, indeed I pointed out that very fact. You asked the question (in a very 'gotcha' manner) then later let it slip you knew the intent of his post, that you do NOT drive your amps into clipping and whatever the rest was that Don said (it's on another page)

That I feel is exactly what Don was saying, the point you thought you could drive some sort of wedge into as if it were some sort of weakness in his statement.

Ok, I get your feeling of being hunted (religious comments), sorry (seriously).

Want to start anew? I mean, howza bout leaving out fluff like '6000 characters' and crap like that. You ask me a question, I answer it, but equally you do the same thing in reverse yeah? Can we have some mutually agreed upon pact?

Far be it for me to say I am innocent, but I wonder just why it is audio forums get to be so divisive or combative. It is a weird thing when you sit down and think about it.

We all love music ( well, I assume we do!) so what would happen if you said (the royal you, not micro) "hey, I prefer the second album from band X", and I say (the not so royal me ) "heck, I prefer the first"....reckon there would be an argument?

Of course not, if anything it would be a wonderful springboard to spirited and enthusiastic discussion. I mean we all have different tastes and whatnot, hardly a thing for bloodshed.

God forbid you express a preference for a bit of gear on an audio forum tho.

Crazy stuff right?

( the only thing that I would still take issue with in your post is your persistence in calling me terryj...I coulda sworn I mentioned it before. However, that was before we became friends so you're forgiven this last time)

 

[microstrip]

(...)
Do you want to start again? See, from where I sit, your post to Don was deliberate. You knew full well what he meant, indeed I pointed out that very fact. You asked the question (in a very 'gotcha' manner) then later let it slip you knew the intent of his post, that you do NOT drive your amps into clipping and whatever the rest was that Don said (it's on another page)

(...)

No I do not want to start. Contrary to what you believe, I do not know full well what Don wanted to say. Voltage clipping is not the only limit to the performance of an amplifier, there are many other issues and he could be addressing any of them. It is why I asked for a clarification, before commenting. I will wait for his answer, no need to fight against windmills.

 

[Gregadd]

I must confess I saw the headline in one of my techie newsfeeds and have not actually read the article yet. Just seemed appropriate for this thread. Hoping to read it later but have rehearsal tonight so probably tomorrow.

FWIWFM, IME and all that jazz, anybody holding an extreme position on anything is probably wrong...

On amplifier differences, I tend to think most SS amps working well within spec sound very similar, same for most tube amps, but the real difference lies in how they handle a real speaker load and especially at higher volumes. Again, IMO/IME/whatever. Sometimes I have walked into a room and picked out two amps when the showroom guy swapped them blind for me, other times much more difficult.

EDIT: OK, skimmed it quickly. Too many holes in it, on both sides, to make it out for more than a (somewhat rambling) blog about somebody else's blog... I prefer to start acurate and then refine to taste; most any audio thread will reveal tastes vary considerably among listeners. Also too many variables as things that start out accurate are modified heavily by the other components, speakers, room, and listener. However, and perhaps this is just because I am an engineer and want to believe, I think most if not all audio designers are going for accuracy in their designs. Be foolish not to given all the other variables. All IMO - Don

Don just teasing. I think you have always been a gentleman on this site.You are at least willing to be convinced of an adverse position.
I would make this equation: accurate = good sound. This equation bothers: me accurate =/ good sound. Sean tells us that accuracy =preference. I suppose people prefer good sound. Then we can make this equation. accuracy =prefernce =good sound. Or If acurate then preferred. If preferred then good (sound.)

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,
Just an example - Dynaudio Consequence mk2, Soundlabs A1s, JMlab Grande Utopia or Wilson Maxx3. Listen to a Dartzeel SS amplifier through them - it will keep its characteristic basic sound. Then listen to the Devialet. All these speakers sound very different, but you will be able to identify the main characteristics of these two very different sounding amplifiers in all of them.

This would require very different-sounding amplifiers; so different-sounding that I'd argue that one, or both, must be doing something seriously wrong, though YMMV. Even then, no mean feat. What is it you hear in each of these amps that is so distinctive that it comes right through the lens of all these very different-sounding speakers?

Tim