What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

[bonzo75]

Respectfully, Ralph, because you disagree with this does not necessarily make it a myth or a falsehood. I agree from an objective engineering sense that it is fair to treat it as a falsehood, because the diaphragm and the construction materials of the loudspeaker don't know the original instruments whose sound waves it is propagating.

Subjectively I believe that different speaker topologies are more or less convincing at reproducing different kinds of music. For example, I have said many times that there is something about the way that horn loudspeaker drivers move air and propagate sound which is consonant with, and especially convincing of, the way that horn instruments themselves move air and make their sounds.

On the best system I think I have ever heard for reproducing jazz music and classical music (Avantgarde Trio G3, AG Basshorns, Wilson Benesch iGxes, VAC Statement line stage, EMIA autoformer, Continuum Caliburn, Analog Relax EX2000, EMIA step-up), its marked superiority on jazz and on classical vanished on girl with guitar vocals.

To my ears there is something about planar dipoles which throws a more convincing illusion of somebody singing to me in my room than any other loudspeaker topology.

So, I truly do believe that different types of music sound more or less convincing on different types of loudspeakers.

Your observations come more from a lack of experience and not using good music or recordings to audition. The right horns are superior to ribbons on vocals and cones on rock. You won’t realise this with fields of gold though

 

[PeterA]

Your observations come more from a lack of experience and not having good music oror recordings to audition. The right horns are superior to ribbons on vocals and cones on rock. You won’t realise this with fields of gold though

Apologies in advance to Ron. All in good fun.

Hallelujah, bring in the clowns through the great gates of Kyiv to the fields of gold.

 

[PeterA]

Respectfully, Ralph, because you disagree with this does not necessarily make it a myth or a falsehood. I agree from an objective engineering sense that it is fair to treat it as a falsehood, because the diaphragm and the construction materials of the loudspeaker don't know the original instruments whose sound waves it is propagating.

Subjectively I believe that different speaker topologies are more or less convincing at reproducing different kinds of music. For example, I have said many times that there is something about the way that horn loudspeaker drivers move air and propagate sound which is consonant with, and especially convincing of, the way that horn instruments themselves move air and make their sounds.

On one of the best systems I think I have ever heard for reproducing jazz music and classical music (Avantgarde Trio G3, AG Basshorns, Wilson Benesch iGxes, VAC Statement line stage, EMIA autoformer, Continuum Caliburn, Analog Relax EX2000, EMIA step-up), its marked superiority on jazz and on classical vanished on girl with guitar vocals.

To my ears there is something about planar dipoles which throws a more convincing illusion of somebody singing to me in my room than any other loudspeaker topology. So, I truly do believe that different types of music sound more or less convincing on different types of loudspeakers.

Ron, that’s an interesting take on it. You are focusing on a speaker type’s strengths. I pointed out its weaknesses and given those, some listeners may prefer certain types of music on them that don’t happen to highlight their weaknesses.

I agree with Ralph in theory as long as a speaker or a system is doing everything right, it will not favor one genre of music over another. However, I agree with you a certain types of speakers do certain things better than others, and therefore the listener may prefer specific music on them. I also agree with Bonzo that the best horns I have heard seem to be able to do everything very well as long as the rest of the system in the room are up to it. Such conditions are rare. Atleast in my limited experience, I have not heard many systems that can seem to do it all.

 

[Atmasphere]

Respectfully, Ralph, because you disagree with this does not necessarily make it a myth or a falsehood. I agree from an objective engineering sense that it is fair to treat it as a falsehood, because the diaphragm and the construction materials of the loudspeaker don't know the original instruments whose sound waves it is propagating.

Subjectively I believe that different speaker topologies are more or less convincing at reproducing different kinds of music. For example, I have said many times that there is something about the way that horn loudspeaker drivers move air and propagate sound which is consonant with, and especially convincing of, the way that horn instruments themselves move air and make their sounds.

On one of the best systems I think I have ever heard for reproducing jazz music and classical music (Avantgarde Trio G3, AG Basshorns, Wilson Benesch iGxes, VAC Statement line stage, EMIA autoformer, Continuum Caliburn, Analog Relax EX2000, EMIA step-up), its marked superiority on jazz and on classical vanished on girl with guitar vocals.

To my ears there is something about planar dipoles which throws a more convincing illusion of somebody singing to me in my room than any other loudspeaker topology. So, I truly do believe that different types of music sound more or less convincing on different types of loudspeakers.

Its not because I disagree that it is a falsehood. IOW it is a falsehood no matter what I think.

The simple fact is no-one has ever been able to make an amp or speaker that favored a certain genre. The classic myth in this regard was rock on the JBL L100s FWIW...

If you could sort out a means of getting electronics to favor a certain musical genre, you'd be into the million$ overnight. So far no-one has done that but audiophiles make up stories as if they did.

If a speaker is a good speaker, it won't care what you throw at it. Literally its a rising tide that raises all boats.

Your anecdote describes a situation where something was wrong and wasn't brought out by the jazz and classical recordings you played. But I guarantee there are jazz and classical recordings that would show that system's weaknesses no problem. Its a matter of sample size; its something we all do- the limited sample size results in our drawing a conclusion which is not logical or correct.

Planars, as I explained earlier, do what they do because of the rear-firing information. If they are set up properly, the information bounced off the wall behind the speaker arrives late enough (about 10mS) that the ear can use it for echo location, causing the image to be more palpable. It will do that with any kind of music.

If you had a speaker with front and rear firing horns it would do the same thing.

 

[bonzo75]

. OTOH, 2 Watts might be where you're getting in trouble. You might try a more powerful amp..

Nice analysis on an n of 1, given that one of the Altecs is on a 4w and absolutely brilliant on black sabbath. Though 10w of the sans design amp was required for good symphony. It has more to do with the excursion difference between the Altec and the Admire audio, not the requirement

 

[Audiohertz2]

Your observations come more from a lack of experience and not using good music or recordings to audition. The right horns are superior to ribbons on vocals and cones on rock. You won’t realise this with fields of gold though

Horns uses cones , better to say Direct radiator vs Horn , so us less knowledgable can follow along. As to being superior to ribbons , its all about the execution..!

They are here , you are there , accuracy to the actually recording ( the Hi in Fidelity ) different design and driver types produces different strengths and weaknesses , you are not going to get someone who places imaging and being sensitive to localization above all to like a here I’am Horn system ..!

 

[Al M.]

Your anecdote describes a situation where something was wrong and wasn't brought out by the jazz and classical recordings you played. But I guarantee there are jazz and classical recordings that would show that system's weaknesses no problem. Its a matter of sample size; its something we all do- the limited sample size results in our drawing a conclusion which is not logical or correct.

To your point, you really have to have a certain sample size to assess a system's weaknesses. For any change in the system or speaker positioning I have to go through a relatively large list of very diverse tracks of diverse music genres in order to establish that there is improvement without any drawback.

It can be tedious but it may be necessary.

Sometimes a change falls apart on one or two tracks in the sense that on those the system plays less well than before.

 

[microstrip]

Respectfully, Ralph, because you disagree with this does not necessarily make it a myth or a falsehood. I agree from an objective engineering sense that it is fair to treat it as a falsehood, because the diaphragm and the construction materials of the loudspeaker don't know the original instruments whose sound waves it is propagating.

Although we can always pick individual cases to disagree with Ralph statement, in general a neutral loudspeaker can reproduce any type of music.

However, some type or speaker add artifacts that can enhance some types of music and be unacceptable with other types. And some types have physical limitations that can affect some types of music more than others.

Any system should be appreciate in its dynamic range and bandwidth.

Subjectively I believe that different speaker topologies are more or less convincing at reproducing different kinds of music. For example, I have said many times that there is something about the way that horn loudspeaker drivers move air and propagate sound which is consonant with, and especially convincing of, the way that horn instruments themselves move air and make their sounds.

IMO horn instruments are not a kind of music and many horn instruments do not have the radiation pattern of a trumpet. But yes, a horn speaker has similar radiation pattern as a trumpet. Should we have a system with individual horn speakers for each horn instrument?

Anyway, recording engineers are said to smooth out the aggressive transients and add warmth to brass recordings to make them more enjoyable - probably you like the addition of horn sound to re establish the natural balance.

On one of the best systems I think I have ever heard for reproducing jazz music and classical music (Avantgarde Trio G3, AG Basshorns, Wilson Benesch iGxes, VAC Statement line stage, EMIA autoformer, Continuum Caliburn, Analog Relax EX2000, EMIA step-up), its marked superiority on jazz and on classical vanished on girl with guitar vocals.

I listened to Trio G3 playing girl on guitar. If this system vanished on it probably it was needing an appropriate set up.

To my ears there is something about planar dipoles which throws a more convincing illusion of somebody singing to me in my room than any other loudspeaker topology. So, I truly do believe that different types of music sound more or less convincing on different types of loudspeakers.

As long as you use your very particular "convincing" as a benchmark for evaluation your beliefs are also very particular. BTW you should listen to girl on guitar on big SoundLab's driven by Ralph MA2 OTL's at realistic levels. IMO it redefines "convincing" on girl on guitar!

 

[DasguteOhr]

The style of excursion of the woofer can make a difference. This system is excellent on classical, playing Mahler 2 with two watt it is as good as any but not at all good on rock.

It sounds beautifully musical, but unfortunately, you can tell that the tubes or output transformers are at their limit. It lacks power and bass. Mahler is a brute force, but unfortunately, that doesn't come across, which is where dynamic headroom comes into play.
Exsampe 97db/ 1watt speaker with 300watt amps

 

[Al M.]

It sounds beautifully musical, but unfortunately, you can tell that the tubes or output transformers are at their limit. It lacks power and bass. Mahler is a brute force, but unfortunately, that doesn't come across, which is where dynamic headroom comes into play.
Exsampe 97db/ 1watt speaker with 300watt amps

Yes, if the video sound is to be believed you can hear how the system collapses in the Admire Audio 2W amplifier video on the big climax around 1 min there -- compare the same music at around 2 min in the video that you posted.

 

[PeterA]

To my ears there is something about planar dipoles which throws a more convincing illusion of somebody singing to me in my room than any other loudspeaker topology. So, I truly do believe that different types of music sound more or less convincing on different types of loudspeakers.

Ron, is your goal to have the illusion that the singer is in your room singing to you or that you are at the venue sitting in front of the singer? This can be a significant distinction, depending on the information on the recording.

You make it sound as though you are designing your system for the “they are here” presentation at all times. Is that really your target?

 

[hopkins]

Ron, is your goal to have the illusion that the singer is in your room singing to you or that you are at the venue sitting in front of the singer? This can be a significant distinction, depending on the information on the recording.

You make it sound as though you are designing your system for the “they are here” presentation at all times. Is that really your target?

This has probably been discussed a zillion times before - recreating the sound that you would experience as a spectator is not the intent of every recording engineer, I don’t know why you fail to grasp this. It’s not a question of system design. A good system should just convey the individuality of each recording.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Yes, if the video sound is to be believed you can hear how the system collapses in the Admire Audio 2W amplifier video on the big climax around 1 min there -- compare the same music at around 2 min in the video that you posted.

I think it really comes into its own with a 6C33 power amp of around 15-18 watts. It's a powerful-sounding tube with a real foundation in the bass. A good foundation is important in music. Listening to several horns with it has always convinced me.

P.S
By the way, I find "Child in Time" by Deep Purple, from the same year as "War Pigs," more interesting. But that's a matter of taste.

 

[Al M.]

This has probably been discussed a zillion times before - recreating the sound that you would experience as a spectator is not the intent of every recording engineer, I don’t know why you fail to grasp this. It’s not a question of system design. A good system should just convey the individuality of each recording.

You seem to misunderstand Peter's question. This is not about what the recording engineer intended or what a "good system should do", but about the preferences of a system owner.

I think it's a legitimate question: What does Ron want? Per his post he says he wants an "illusion of somebody singing to me in my room". But perhaps he wants to explain further.

 

[Hornsolutions Swen]

In practice Gobel Majestic, TAD R1 and WAMM can give you close to horn dynamics.

No, they simply can't.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Please Come here

Please take him …!

 

[Kozak170]

On one of the best systems I think I have ever heard for reproducing jazz music and classical music (Avantgarde Trio G3, AG Basshorns, Wilson Benesch iGxes, VAC Statement line stage, EMIA autoformer, Continuum Caliburn, Analog Relax EX2000, EMIA step-up), its marked superiority on jazz and on classical vanished on girl with guitar vocals.

What you describe makes sense if the Trio G3 was auditioned with the Itron amp. That combination can emphasize control and dynamics, but with “girl with guitar” material it sometimes doesn’t bring out the last bit of delicacy and tonal nuance in the vocals. With music that simple and exposed, setup and amp matching become critical. Many listeners (myself included) find that SET amps like 300B or 2A3 tend to reveal the natural warmth, texture, and intimacy in this type of vocal performance more convincingly on the AGs.

 

[Kozak170]

No, they simply can't.

I guess you’re like the fifth or sixth person telling him the truth, but Amir still won’t budge like a broken record stuck on one track.

 

[Hornsolutions Swen]

I guess you’re like the fifth or sixth person telling him the truth, but Amir still won’t budge like a broken record stuck on one track.

That's the reason I kept my answer short and simple

 

[Kozak170]

That's the reason I kept my answer short and simple

Looks like Amir listened to this “horn” and now believes its dynamics match TAD, WAMM, or Göbel…
Yeah, and my old radio must be competing with Vox Olympian too! lol