What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

[Atmasphere]

The author of this report compares their dynamics

These days I take umbrage to the word 'dynamics' which has always vexed me. IMO, IME when that word is used, in 95% or greater of audiophile conversation, you can safely replace it with 'distortion' without changing the meaning of the conversation. This is simply due to the fact that the ear uses higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure and so if any extra are present, will cause the sound to seem louder than it really is.

This is a very common phenomena with SETs, which is why people often say they are 'dynamic'. But other distortion sources exist; consequently I'm always suspicious when I see this term bandied about. A slightly misaligned phono cartridge can have a similar effect as can improper mating of a compression driver to a horn (the taper being incorrect), cone breakups and so on.

Once the distortion sources are tamed, quite often along with having a more relaxed, transparent sound, the system won't seem as 'loud'.

I showed with the Steve's speakers at THE show years ago; they were easy to drive and sounded just fine.

Next time when I'll go again to Bulgaria to Yanislav's house to listen to that system from the video I posted here (the one with the Altec 817) I will try to use not a phone to record the sound and image but something more professional with a good microphone.
I recognise I recorded that posted video here on a very poor quality phone (Samsung J5).

If you do so you'll notice that there is some sort of metering to prevent you overloading the recorder. So you'll have to be careful to set the right level. If there is no metering for sound level then the system has an automatic gain control/compression scheme and won't make an honest recording.

Why would someone ever put big bore solid-state on high sensitivity horns? With a plasma tweeter, no less?

Because the amp might be quite musical. After all, its not the kind of amp that makes the sound, its the kind of distortion the amp makes and doesn't make which is important to the ear (IOW, that's the main difference we hear between various amps). If, as a designer, you understand that fact, that allows for a design to be musical regardless of its topology (or 'religion'...).

I remember commenting favorably on this video before. What makes it a slightly different iteration? The system has the immediately and impact necessary for this kind of music. Perhaps not the last word in clarity which is vital for large scale complex symphonic music, but it is excellent for rock.

Again, amps and speakers are incapable of a musical preference. IOW you need the same characteristics to play Wagner or Stravinsky.

 

[bonzo75]

Leif’s system war pigs

 

[Kozak170]

I think your comment about me shows you are not a normal person and I guess your name is Mr. Vahid Sharafi. It seems You live in Tehran, Tajrish area and you have Wilson speaker, purist cable, PS audio P20, … you follow Roy Gregory, Jim Smith and Kedar and just repeat other theories and opinions. Please share your playback picture and let me know who you really are?!!!!!

In my city Tehran (Iran) some audiophiles like Arash Najafi and … are active in audio forums but they hide their real name. They post with fake names and nobody knows who are they?!!!

I have read your pervious posts in WBF because I think your reaction is not normal.

My history is very clear, my name is Amir Hossein Akbari, my audio weblog www.hifi.ir is active since 2000 and I never was active in audio business before 2018.

actually I wrote about Weiss, ASR, Vitus in my weblog around 2007. Around 2007 In my weblog www.hifi.ir I recommended ASR (class AB for low to mid efficiency cone speakers) and Vitus (class A for mid to high efficiency cone speakers) amplification.
Around 2007 I also recommended Kondo Audio Note amplification for Living Voice horn speakers.
All of my opinions shared in my weblog and every audiophile can read it.

my WBF topic is here :
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...0-c600-m700-r1-review-2022-tehran-iran.34892/

I’ve been following discussions across different forums for years, and I’ve seen your posts in the past, often completely contradictory to the positions you’re taking today. You can imagine I might be anyone with any system; that’s irrelevant.

What truly matters is consistency. If someone once identified as a follower of the philosophies of people like Romy, Jim Smith, or David Karmeli, and spoke from that foundation, it doesn’t make sense to suddenly pivot and start making marketing-driven claims. Statements like “TAD delivers the true dynamics of horns” come across not as insight but as spin, and that undermines credibility. It would be like me, with firsthand experience of AG horns, later on insisting that Wilson Sasha speakers deliver the same level of dynamics and then stubbornly defending that claim without any solid foundation. That kind of argument doesn’t reflect genuine insight; it just undermines credibility.

Romy never said high order crossovers kill micro dynamics.

You have nothing to say and you just copy/paste other ideas so it is better to copy/paste without adding your wrong opinion.


Do you know what micro/macro dynamic means?

Please stop

Maybe Romy never stated directly that high-order crossovers kill micro dynamics, but for exactly these obvious reasons he rejects them. The more complex the filter, the more the music has to pass through extra components, each introducing phase shift, time smear, and energy loss. This inevitably blurs micro-dynamics and weakens note decay. That’s why many designers of high efficiency systems, Romy included, lean toward simpler networks: fewer parts in the path, more immediacy and natural flow.

I know the meaning of both micro and macro dynamics, which is precisely why I would never place cone-based speakers like my Sasha on the same level as horn loudspeakers with explosive dynamics, lol.

Please let me know where you listened to AG horns??

Please share some photos.

I guess you never listened to AG horns.

I listened to Avantgarde in the US back when Mike was their representative. Unfortunately, I didn’t take any photos to share with you.

 

[Al M.]

These days I take umbrage to the word 'dynamics' which has always vexed me. IMO, IME when that word is used, in 95% or greater of audiophile conversation, you can safely replace it with 'distortion' without changing the meaning of the conversation. This is simply due to the fact that the ear uses higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure and so if any extra are present, will cause the sound to seem louder than it really is.

This is a very common phenomena with SETs, which is why people often say they are 'dynamic'. But other distortion sources exist; consequently I'm always suspicious when I see this term bandied about. A slightly misaligned phono cartridge can have a similar effect as can improper mating of a compression driver to a horn (the taper being incorrect), cone breakups and so on.

Once the distortion sources are tamed, quite often along with having a more relaxed, transparent sound, the system won't seem as 'loud'.

I agree, there are a lot of "fake" dynamics out there. A knowledgeable audiophile once told me, 35 years ago when I started my audiophile journey, "many people mistake hardness for dynamics". While back then I did not understand it as much, this comment has stuck in my mind and I now find it very true (hardness of course, while it can be there in real music, mostly is a kind of distortion, too).

When in the last several years I cleaned up my sound, by removing room distortion (very important, and IMO the issue is a vastly underestimated problem, especially at high volume levels), by improving my electronics and by improving power delivery (huge contribution to the whole as well), I discovered that some passages that had sounded so "excitingly" dynamic, due to increase in hardness or other distortions, did not sound like that anymore. Yet the true dynamics, as quickly established on a few crucial tracks after each improvement, still were the same (or even enhanced).

That corresponds with my experience in the concert hall. Yes, sometimes the dynamics, especially on large orchestra, exceed anything I have heard in any home system and are awesomely impressive, but not too rarely I caught myself wondering (more so in the past than now), "where are the exciting dynamics"? The dynamics are there, alright, but they are presented in a relaxed (to your point), unobtrusive manner. That is how reproduction at home should be too, and mine has come closer to that goal over the years. Real dynamics can still be explosive, sometimes to the point that I am taken aback, but all (or most of) the "fake" stuff from yesteryear is gone.

Yet indeed, when people rave about "dynamics", often I am suspicious as well, given my experiences over the years and along the lines of your thinking outlined above.

Speakers can shout, too, and thus can sound more "dynamic" than real.

I showed with the Steve's speakers at THE show years ago; they were easy to drive

Yes, they are easy to drive.

 

[Kozak170]

Grandinote Mach 9 and larger all have great dynamics for non-horn speakers. Same for my Hornings. That said, no home speaker system on the planet can do justice to a full orchestra and that is as much the recording to blame as the system…although you put a live orchestra feed through anything less than a huge stadium line array and you will get destroyed speakers or crippling compression.

Yes, all we can really do is push our systems to their limits in the hope of capturing that orchestral essence and getting as close as possible to the scale, impact, and emotion of a full live performance. Of course, no home setup can ever truly equal the sheer power and dimensionality of a real orchestra, but the pursuit itself is part of the passion: refining the system, shaping the room, and chasing that fleeting illusion of being transported into the concert hall.

I first listened to the early series of the Grandinote Mach 9, back when they had aluminum cabinets and carbon-fiber drivers. The sound was lively with excellent clarity, but it lacked a bit of warmth and natural tone. Later, when I heard the newer generation with MDF cabinets and what seemed to be papyrus-based drivers, that missing warmth and tonal naturalness was finally there, and it added the musicality I had been looking for.

IMO, with high efficiency full-range speakers, which are connected directly to the amp without any filter and make the character of the diaphragm material far more evident, the best choice is always natural fibers. Synthetic materials can sometimes strip away that warmth and musicality, leaving the sound more sterile than natural.

 

[Atmasphere]

TAD delivers the true dynamics of horns

TAD, in their 500Hz machined maple horn, used to have an artifact due to an error in the throat design. I do not know if they ever fixed it.

Classic Audio Loudspeakers was using that horn and after sorting that out, realized they had to make their own horn to install the correction needed. This gave the horn flat response instead of the peak of the earlier TAD horn; its much easier to listen to. So while it appears that Classic Audio Loudspeakers uses the same machined maple horn, they don't.

 

[bonzo75]

TAD, in their 500Hz machined maple horn, used to have an artifact due to an error in the throat design. I do not know if they ever fixed it.

Classic Audio Loudspeakers was using that horn and after sorting that out, realized they had to make their own horn to install the correction needed. This gave the horn flat response instead of the peak of the earlier TAD horn; its much easier to listen to. So while it appears that Classic Audio Loudspeakers uses the same machined maple horn, they don't.

You are referring to the TAD driver from the horn, Kozak was sarcastically referring to Amir’s TAD reference cone speaker

 

[PeterA]

Again, amps and speakers are incapable of a musical preference. IOW you need the same characteristics to play Wagner or Stravinsky.

I agree, Ralph, but that’s not my point. If a system lacks the last word in clarity or resolution, I do not think it would be most suitable for classical music. In my opinion, classical music is the most demanding of a system. Some systems or speakers are more capable than others. The ones less capable may still sound decent on some kinds of less demanding music.

 

[bonzo75]

Again, amps and speakers are incapable of a musical preference. IOW you need the same characteristics to play Wagner or Stravinsky.

The style of excursion of the woofer can make a difference. This system is excellent on classical, playing Mahler 2 with two watt it is as good as any but not at all good on rock.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Play unfamilar classical on it , no memory recall , report …!

 

[bonzo75]

Play unfamilar classical on it , no memory recall , report …!

Happens all the time hosts play something they want, that’s how we get introduced to new LPs.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Why would someone ever put big bore solid-state on high sensitivity horns? With a plasma tweeter, no less?

Why would it matter the power output on horns ..?

Even Ralph runs high power on his …!

 

[Audiohertz2]

The dynamic headroom on that with Krell is much lower than with low watt amps on other speakers, though higher than low watt amp on that speaker. This is audible in room and on videos

Speaker issue not amplifier …!

 

[Audiohertz2]

Well, I don’t have the knowledge or experience to speak with any kind of authority, but I once thought my Magico Q3 speakers were dynamic. They were driven by Pass XA160.5 monos in a small room. I was very pleased with all sorts of music. Then I was exposed to very sensitive speakers, 114 dB driven by 32 W SETs and my 105 dB 16 ohm corner horns driven by 18 W SETs. I now realize that my old Magicos were not very dynamic, not on drum solos, large, symphonic music, solo piano, nor string quartets. I guess it is all relative.

I hear the effect as greater ease, or effortlessness. There is certainly more jump, factor and explosiveness. More energy in the room. Also, it’s a more open sound with more information. I think it is all a result of efficiency and dynamics. Does that make sense?

Yes but thats from the design choices made not because of its lower sensitivity..!

 

[Al M.]

Leif’s system war pigs

The best system video of that track that you posted. Everything is in balance. Guitars have good bite and tone, vocals sound pretty open and convincing, drums have weight and punch (even though there is a slight bit of boom). There is just a good balance of both clarity and weight, it's all there.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

source is a Studer A80 with Nextgen reproboards
unfortunately when I dubbed this,I hadn´t yet discovered the RTM SM900 tape, but used PER528, which partly explains the slight ripe midbass
dubbed directly from Safety master onto my second A80

 

[Audiohertz2]

The best system video of that track that you posted. Everything is in balance. Guitars have good bite and tone, vocals sound pretty open and convincing, drums have weight and punch (even though there is a slight bit of boom). There is just a good balance of both clarity and weight, it's all there.

Its a better design than the others if executed correctly the balance should be much better .,

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

two-way down to 65

 

[Atmasphere]

I agree, Ralph, but that’s not my point. If a system lacks the last word in clarity or resolution, I do not think it would be most suitable for classical music. In my opinion, classical music is the most demanding of a system. Some systems or speakers are more capable than others. The ones less capable may still sound decent on some kinds of less demanding music.

Emphasis added; It wouldn't be for rock either. Or Jazz, folk (including ethic varieties), blues and so on. It simply would not be suitable. Classical music is no more demanding of a system than other forms. A proper speaker, IMO, is one that is capable of wide dynamic range, full bandwidth (although I've no problem using subs for the bottom 2 octaves) and yet is plenty nuanced.

The style of excursion of the woofer can make a difference. This system is excellent on classical, playing Mahler 2 with two watt it is as good as any but not at all good on rock.

If that is the case its 'not at all good' for classical either. I have some examples beyond just Mahler. Your sample size might be too small. FWIW you seem to be in contradiction to Peter's post above... OTOH, 2 Watts might be where you're getting in trouble. You might try a more powerful amp...

Why would it matter the power output on horns ..?

Even Ralph runs high power on his …!

Even prior to our class Ds, I found that the larger amps sounded more relaxed- so our M-60s (which make 80 Watts in the 16 Ohm load of my speakers) were at the bottom end of the sort of power I liked to run in my old listening space which was 17' by 21'. My new space is slightly smaller but I still like to run a bit of power despite the 98dB efficiency of the speakers. I don't mind the lower noise floor of the class Ds compared to any tube amp I've had on the speakers. Anyone who runs horns knows what I'm talking about.

In a nutshell, for best results in any system the amp should be loafing nearly all the time and it really doesn't matter what kind of amp.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Clearly a case of not knowing what one is talking about, in this case on account that it is impossible for . . . loudspeakers to favor a particular musical genre. This is one of the most common myths in audio and its been around a long time.

Respectfully, Ralph, because you disagree with this does not necessarily make it a myth or a falsehood. I agree from an objective engineering sense that it is fair to treat it as a falsehood, because the diaphragm and the construction materials of the loudspeaker don't know the original instruments whose sound waves it is propagating.

Subjectively I believe that different speaker topologies are more or less convincing at reproducing different kinds of music. For example, I have said many times that there is something about the way that horn loudspeaker drivers move air and propagate sound which is consonant with, and especially convincing of, the way that horn instruments themselves move air and make their sounds.

On one of the best systems I think I have ever heard for reproducing jazz music and classical music (Avantgarde Trio G3, AG Basshorns, Wilson Benesch iGxes, VAC Statement line stage, EMIA autoformer, Continuum Caliburn, Analog Relax EX2000, EMIA step-up), its marked superiority on jazz and on classical vanished on girl with guitar vocals.

To my ears there is something about planar dipoles which throws a more convincing illusion of somebody singing to me in my room than any other loudspeaker topology. So, I truly do believe that different types of music sound more or less convincing on different types of loudspeakers.