What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

[Hear Here]

Thank you and good to know. I have only heard the current generation (G3) and was extremely impressed by what I heard.

Did you listen with Avantgarde's own iTron amplification (the fully active version) or with independent amps of whatever Class and power the owner chooses with the AG's bass section being self-powered? By all accounts, the iTron takes a lot of beating.

 

[LL21]

Did you listen with Avantgarde's own iTron amplification (the fully active version) or with independent amps of whatever Class and power the owner chooses with the AG's bass section being self-powered? By all accounts, the iTron takes a lot of beating.

It was Emm Labs MTRX Ref Monos. I was surprised to see a 1500 watt amp with this pair of speakers, but it was not set up for me. It was clearly set up for someone else, and I happened to have about 45 minutes to an hour by myself listening to it alongside the dealer.

 

[morricab]

Did you listen with Avantgarde's own iTron amplification (the fully active version) or with independent amps of whatever Class and power the owner chooses with the AG's bass section being self-powered? By all accounts, the iTron takes a lot of beating.

Heard two demos now with Itron and, well not for me. I heard the new Uno SD G3 with a 300B amp previously unknown to me and, well that I wanted to take home! The best I have heard from Duos is with Thomas Mayer and with Audiopax.

 

[flez007]

I enjoyed the Acapella Audio Arts horns with dedicated electronics at Munich, they pleased my listening in so many ways.

 

[Kozak170]

I would consider speakers that are 93-98 dB efficient as "high efficiency". If this is a "real" efficiency that is adjusted for impedance.

In my view, an efficient loudspeaker is a resistive-friendly design, one that keeps its impedance flat and above 5–6 ohms across most of the frequency range, is often high-sensitivity (95 dB+), and avoids complex crossovers that introduce phase rotation. Such designs behave much closer to a purely resistive load and are therefore highly SET-friendly.
An example is the Sigma Acoustics MAAT, which features physically time-aligned drivers and a first-order crossover (time & phase aligned). Its designer drives it with a 20w 300B amp. Another example is a full-range speaker without a crossover, such as the Grandinote Mach, which can be easily driven with 300B or 2A3 SETs.

By this definition, the Goebel Noblesse cannot be placed in that league, as it behaves more like a reactive-load loudspeaker, similar to Wilson or Magico. However, it generally requires less current (can be driven by 150w amps such as Robert Koda) compared to the Wilson XVX, which demands high-current amps in the 300W+ range (such as CH, darTZeel, or D’Agostino).

The Noblesse is 95dB efficient with a relatively simple crossover and is easy to drive. And to me, this shows in how it sounds.

Loudspeaker manufactuers are making poor design decisions. They are pounding the frequency response flat with an overly complicated crossover and trying to achieve too much bass extension for the cabinet size. By doing this they are trading off high(er) sensitivity and impedance (ease of drive).

Goebel, like other marketing driven brands such as Magico, Wilson, TAD, Kharma, Stenheim.. uses a complex crossover (3rd order). Unfortunately, many loudspeaker manufacturers, instead of first matching their drivers physically and acoustically to simplify the crossover (as done by Vandersteen, Sigma Acoustics), take the easier and cheaper route, and forcefully match the drivers using a complex crossovers to cover up design flaws. If you look at Gobel, you'll see that the drivers are not time-aligned, and this flaw alone makes the crossover more complicated. to compensate for the lack of physical time alignment of the drivers, they shift the burden onto the crossover and employ special filters such as all-pass filter to mask the phase delay issue. Naturally, this results in a more complex crossover, introduces additional filters and phase shifts, diminishes musicality, and ultimately makes the speaker harder to drive.

 

[bonzo75]

Unfortunately, many loudspeaker manufacturers, instead of first matching their drivers physically and acoustically to simplify the crossover (as done by Vandersteen, Sigma Acoustics), take the easier and cheaper route, and forcefully match the drivers using a complex crossovers to cover up design flaws.

This is the main issue.

 

[Argonaut]

This is the main issue.

However not always a universal one , for instance there are a number of transducer systems that you yourself have commented upon , and write favourably about , that do not sport physicality time aligned drivers e.g hORNS Universum , TuneAudio Anima , AG TRIO , The DIY Array out in Norfolk that you visited recently etcetera .

 

[bonzo75]

However not always a universal one , for instance there are a number of transducer systems that you yourself have commented upon , and write favourably about , that do not sport physicality time aligned drivers e.g hORNS Universum , TuneAudio Anima , AG TRIO , The DIY Array out in Norfolk that you visited recently etcetera .

Yes but they might be aligned on sensitivity and impedance. I don’t know about anima as they don’t disclose exact drivers. Universum is all Radian and bass is active, and the reason why I don’t like it as much as the dual woofer FLHs like Altec 817.

The DIY array is Goto and Altec. I assume Goto sensitivity and impedance is aligned to Altec’s, and the relative weak point to my ears compared to FLH was the cabinet bass.

The issue comes when your sensitivities and impedances are misaligned. The reason many systems are fatiguing is that you are turning up volume for the least loud and difficult to drive driver, causing the other driver to go too loud. Or you risk losing musical information if you turn volume down. And requires worse amps to get to low impedances.

Cessaro TAD with Supravox is a great example of why Cessaro midbass below is as not as good, because the Supravox cannot be properly integrated with the TAD

 

[Argonaut]

Yes but they might be aligned on sensitivity and impedance. I don’t know about anima as they don’t disclose exact drivers. Universum is all Radian and bass is active, and the reason why I don’t like it as much as the dual woofer FLHs like Altec 817.

The DIY array is Goto and Altec. I assume Goto sensitivity and impedance is aligned to Altec’s, and the relative weak point to my ears compared to FLH was the cabinet bass.

The issue comes when your sensitivities and impedances are misaligned. The reason many systems are fatiguing is that you are turning up volume for the least loud and difficult to drive driver, causing the other driver to go too loud. Or you risk losing musical information if you turn volume down. And requires worse amps to get to low impedances.

Cessaro TAD with Supravox is a great example of why Cessaro midbass below is as not as good, because the Supravox cannot be properly integrated with the TAD

Yup , as I alluded to … it can be done if other elements of the overall design are well thought out and implemented.

 

[Argonaut]

Another aspect , quite often overlooked, being the physical size of some multi driver transducers , horns in particular, where either the listening position is too close to the transducers , often due to an inappropriately sized room, whereby the elements of the drivers are not allowed to form into a cohesive sound stage .

 

[Al M.]

In my view, an efficient loudspeaker is a resistive-friendly design, one that keeps its impedance flat and above 5–6 ohms across most of the frequency range, is often high-sensitivity (95 dB+), and avoids complex crossovers that introduce phase rotation. Such designs behave much closer to a purely resistive load and are therefore highly SET-friendly.
An example is the Sigma Acoustics MAAT, which features physically time-aligned drivers and a first-order crossover (time & phase aligned). Its designer drives it with a 20w 300B amp. Another example is a full-range speaker without a crossover, such as the Grandinote Mach, which can be easily driven with 300B or 2A3 SETs.

By this definition, the Goebel Noblesse cannot be placed in that league, as it behaves more like a reactive-load loudspeaker, similar to Wilson or Magico. However, it generally requires less current (can be driven by 150w amps such as Robert Koda) compared to the Wilson XVX, which demands high-current amps in the 300W+ range (such as CH, darTZeel, or D’Agostino).

Very well stated. Raw sensitivity numbers are overrated. Resistive behaviour rather than reactive behavior is at least as important as nominal sensitivity.

My PranaFidelity Dhyana speakers are nominally 8 Ohm and have their "worst" impedance dip of 6.1 Ohm at 172 Hz. They also have shallow phase angles. In addition, the crossover is not high-order and it's simpler already by the fact that it's only a two-way speaker (even though it's multi-way). The designer intentionally wanted to make the speaker as little reactive as possible.

As a result, despite the nominally mediocre sensitivity of 88.5 dB my tube amp of just 80-85 W/ch into 8 Ohms can drive them without any strain as dynamically at high volume levels in my room as a high-powered class D amp.

As for the sensitivity, it is measured in a semi-anechoic room. Also here the speaker designer is more honest than other manufacturers like Stenheim who cheat and measure "in typical listening environments" (at least Stenheim admit that they do, but beware of their crazy sensitivity numbers). My previous two-way monitors were specified as 92 dB sensitive, but the PranaFidelity Dhyana achieve exactly the same loudness at the exact same volume settings as these, so the actual sensitivities are the same.

When I first heard the speakers at a show 2 years ago, a friend who was with me and who has 104 dB sensitive horn speakers commented on the PranaFidelity speakers that they sounded like high-efficiency speakers.

 

[abeidrov]

In my view, an efficient loudspeaker is a resistive-friendly design, one that keeps its impedance flat and above 5–6 ohms across most of the frequency range, is often high-sensitivity (95 dB+), and avoids complex crossovers that introduce phase rotation. Such designs behave much closer to a purely resistive load and are therefore highly SET-friendly.
An example is the Sigma Acoustics MAAT, which features physically time-aligned drivers and a first-order crossover (time & phase aligned). Its designer drives it with a 20w 300B amp. Another example is a full-range speaker without a crossover, such as the Grandinote Mach, which can be easily driven with 300B or 2A3 SETs.

By this definition, the Goebel Noblesse cannot be placed in that league, as it behaves more like a reactive-load loudspeaker, similar to Wilson or Magico. However, it generally requires less current (can be driven by 150w amps such as Robert Koda) compared to the Wilson XVX, which demands high-current amps in the 300W+ range (such as CH, darTZeel, or D’Agostino).



Goebel, like other marketing driven brands such as Magico, Wilson, TAD, Kharma, Stenheim.. uses a complex crossover (3rd order). Unfortunately, many loudspeaker manufacturers, instead of first matching their drivers physically and acoustically to simplify the crossover (as done by Vandersteen, Sigma Acoustics), take the easier and cheaper route, and forcefully match the drivers using a complex crossovers to cover up design flaws. If you look at Gobel, you'll see that the drivers are not time-aligned, and this flaw alone makes the crossover more complicated. to compensate for the lack of physical time alignment of the drivers, they shift the burden onto the crossover and employ special filters such as all-pass filter to mask the phase delay issue. Naturally, this results in a more complex crossover, introduces additional filters and phase shifts, diminishes musicality, and ultimately makes the speaker harder to drive.

What about Zellaton speakers? Which group would you place them in?

 

[Amir]

In my view, an efficient loudspeaker is a resistive-friendly design, one that keeps its impedance flat and above 5–6 ohms across most of the frequency range, is often high-sensitivity (95 dB+), and avoids complex crossovers that introduce phase rotation. Such designs behave much closer to a purely resistive load and are therefore highly SET-friendly.
An example is the Sigma Acoustics MAAT, which features physically time-aligned drivers and a first-order crossover (time & phase aligned). Its designer drives it with a 20w 300B amp. Another example is a full-range speaker without a crossover, such as the Grandinote Mach, which can be easily driven with 300B or 2A3 SETs.

By this definition, the Goebel Noblesse cannot be placed in that league, as it behaves more like a reactive-load loudspeaker, similar to Wilson or Magico. However, it generally requires less current (can be driven by 150w amps such as Robert Koda) compared to the Wilson XVX, which demands high-current amps in the 300W+ range (such as CH, darTZeel, or D’Agostino).



Goebel, like other marketing driven brands such as Magico, Wilson, TAD, Kharma, Stenheim.. uses a complex crossover (3rd order). Unfortunately, many loudspeaker manufacturers, instead of first matching their drivers physically and acoustically to simplify the crossover (as done by Vandersteen, Sigma Acoustics), take the easier and cheaper route, and forcefully match the drivers using a complex crossovers to cover up design flaws. If you look at Gobel, you'll see that the drivers are not time-aligned, and this flaw alone makes the crossover more complicated. to compensate for the lack of physical time alignment of the drivers, they shift the burden onto the crossover and employ special filters such as all-pass filter to mask the phase delay issue. Naturally, this results in a more complex crossover, introduces additional filters and phase shifts, diminishes musicality, and ultimately makes the speaker harder to drive.

I think you should forget what you think about TAD R1, Gobel Majestic, Wilson WAMM and try to listen to these speakers with proper amplification then you will realize relation of impedance/sensitivity and proper dynamics is not as simple as you think.
In practice Gobel Majestic, TAD R1 and WAMM can give you close to horn dynamics.

Sigma MAAT is efficient but is not a good speaker in comparison by flagship model of gobel, TAD, Wilson. My experience shows All of those specification like no-crossover (like wilson benesch), simple crossover (like MATT) , linear phase (like gryphon) all are marketing hype and the only trusted way to speak about speakers is listening to those speakers.

 

[bonzo75]

In practice Gobel Majestic, TAD R1 and WAMM can give you close to horn dynamics.

you must have heard some really poor horns

 

[Amir]

you must have heard some really poor horns

No, I listened to your favorite WE horn

 

[bonzo75]

No, I listened to your favorite WE horn

How do you know? Do you remember which years I liked it and which I did not? you were there at the same years?

 

[Amir]

marketing is not just advertising in audio magazines or audio reviewing, many companies try to convince you they produce better products by showing better specifications. Check Gryphon and wilson benesch speakers specification : no crossover, sealed box bass, linear phase and time crossover, carbon fiber driver … when you listen to those speakers you think all of those good specs are just marketing hype. there are some low-mid level dacs in this market that claim they use r-2r dac but their sound is not good.
Check Aries Crates specification and listen to Aries Crates room in Moc 2024 , you can not believe it.

I think we should listen and listen and listen without reading specs/reviews …

 

[Amir]

How do you know? Do you remember which years I liked it and which I did not? you were there at the same years?

Kedar, erase all you knows about specs from your mind. If you can please Come to Iran and listen to my TAD R1 you will realize theory/specs are different to real experience

 

[bonzo75]

Kedar, erase all you knows about specs from your mind. If you can please Come to Iran and listen to my TAD R1 you will realize theory/specs are different to real experience

Please post videos

 

[Amir]

Please post videos

Please Come here