What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

[Audiohertz2]

That's the reason I kept my answer short and simple

Yep , well Basically ….!

 

[morricab]

Some people approach it differently. They prefer the sound of an SET and then they find the speakers that are the appropriate match. That too is a logical approach.

I have been an amp first guy for a pretty long time now…

 

[morricab]

These days I take umbrage to the word 'dynamics' which has always vexed me. IMO, IME when that word is used, in 95% or greater of audiophile conversation, you can safely replace it with 'distortion' without changing the meaning of the conversation. This is simply due to the fact that the ear uses higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure and so if any extra are present, will cause the sound to seem louder than it really is.

This is a very common phenomena with SETs, which is why people often say they are 'dynamic'. But other distortion sources exist; consequently I'm always suspicious when I see this term bandied about. A slightly misaligned phono cartridge can have a similar effect as can improper mating of a compression driver to a horn (the taper being incorrect), cone breakups and so on.

Once the distortion sources are tamed, quite often along with having a more relaxed, transparent sound, the system won't seem as 'loud'.

I showed with the Steve's speakers at THE show years ago; they were easy to drive and sounded just fine.

If you do so you'll notice that there is some sort of metering to prevent you overloading the recorder. So you'll have to be careful to set the right level. If there is no metering for sound level then the system has an automatic gain control/compression scheme and won't make an honest recording.

Because the amp might be quite musical. After all, its not the kind of amp that makes the sound, its the kind of distortion the amp makes and doesn't make which is important to the ear (IOW, that's the main difference we hear between various amps). If, as a designer, you understand that fact, that allows for a design to be musical regardless of its topology (or 'religion'...).

Again, amps and speakers are incapable of a musical preference. IOW you need the same characteristics to play Wagner or Stravinsky.

The circuit, the devices used and the class of operation define the kind of distortion the amp generates. So, how can you say that topology doesn’t matter? It most definitely matters. Each amplification device, triode, pentode, BJT, MOSFET, SIT etc. has a unique transfer function and therefore distortion characteristics. Likewise, the circuit type, pp or SET for example, will generate different patterns because PP circuits cancel even order harmonics. Then Class of operations further impacts.
Next you are going to say you can make a high feedback BJT, fully balanced Cass AB amp sound just like a zero feedback SET, or a Class A PP triode?

 

[morricab]

Why would it matter the power output on horns ..?

Even Ralph runs high power on his …!

It’s not the power per se that’s the issue…it’s the topology typically used to make that power.

 

[PeterA]

This has probably been discussed a zillion times before - recreating the sound that you would experience as a spectator is not the intent of every recording engineer, I don’t know why you fail to grasp this. It’s not a question of system design. A good system should just convey the individuality of each recording.

I get that. Perhaps you should reread what Ron wrote to understand why I asked him for clarification. Ron wrote a very clear description of his goal and it seems independent of what the recording engineer intended. Ron’s description implies to me that he is shaping the sound of his system for a very specific type of presentation. As we all know, Ron is extremely precise with his words.

 

[morricab]

Yes, all we can really do is push our systems to their limits in the hope of capturing that orchestral essence and getting as close as possible to the scale, impact, and emotion of a full live performance. Of course, no home setup can ever truly equal the sheer power and dimensionality of a real orchestra, but the pursuit itself is part of the passion: refining the system, shaping the room, and chasing that fleeting illusion of being transported into the concert hall.

I first listened to the early series of the Grandinote Mach 9, back when they had aluminum cabinets and carbon-fiber drivers. The sound was lively with excellent clarity, but it lacked a bit of warmth and natural tone. Later, when I heard the newer generation with MDF cabinets and what seemed to be papyrus-based drivers, that missing warmth and tonal naturalness was finally there, and it added the musicality I had been looking for.

IMO, with high efficiency full-range speakers, which are connected directly to the amp without any filter and make the character of the diaphragm material far more evident, the best choice is always natural fibers. Synthetic materials can sometimes strip away that warmth and musicality, leaving the sound more sterile than natural.

My Hornings speakers have essentially no filter (only a cap on the tweeter) and 98dB. Sound glorious with a 3.5 watt 2A3 amp.

 

[PeterA]

You seem to misunderstand Peter's question. This is not about what the recording engineer intended or what a "good system should do", but about the preferences of a system owner.

I think it's a legitimate question: What does Ron want? Per his post he says he wants an "illusion of somebody singing to me in my room". But perhaps he wants to explain further.

Exactly. Hopkins did not understand my post.

 

[MRJAZZ]

TAD, in their 500Hz machined maple horn, used to have an artifact due to an error in the throat design. I do not know if they ever fixed it.

Classic Audio Loudspeakers was using that horn and after sorting that out, realized they had to make their own horn to install the correction needed. This gave the horn flat response instead of the peak of the earlier TAD horn; its much easier to listen to. So while it appears that Classic Audio Loudspeakers uses the same machined maple horn, they don't.

Do you know where in the mid band this distortion in the original TAD occurred ( 2 to 3 k?).

 

[bonzo75]

Ron, is your goal to have the illusion that the singer is in your room singing to you or that you are at the venue sitting in front of the singer? This can be a significant distinction, depending on the information on the recording.

You make it sound as though you are designing your system for the “they are here” presentation at all times. Is that really your target?

Please don’t put him in a tough spot

He wrote so in May

Post in thread 'Problems with believability in audio'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/problems-with-believability-in-audio.40882/post-1054777

When I asked him he realised he was implying a coloured system, he corrected it by taking out “in the room”

Post in thread 'Problems with believability in audio'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/problems-with-believability-in-audio.40882/post-1054781

A month later he added back “in the room”


Post in thread 'What is Your Test for Comparing Two Audio Components?'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...aring-two-audio-components.41014/post-1061130

 

[bonzo75]

It sounds beautifully musical, but unfortunately, you can tell that the tubes or output transformers are at their limit. It lacks power and bass. Mahler is a brute force, but unfortunately, that doesn't come across, which is where dynamic headroom comes into play.
Exsampe 97db/ 1watt speaker with 300watt amps

The dynamic headroom of Admire audio was great on both Mahler and many other classical tracks including new world, and their woofer enclosure is providing the bass. I don’t like the video you posted at all.

 

[PeterA]

Please don’t put him in a tough spot

He wrote so in May

Post in thread 'Problems with believability in audio'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/problems-with-believability-in-audio.40882/post-1054777

When I asked him he realised he was implying a coloured system, he corrected it by taking out “in the room”

Post in thread 'Problems with believability in audio'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/problems-with-believability-in-audio.40882/post-1054781

A month later he added back “in the room”


Post in thread 'What is Your Test for Comparing Two Audio Components?'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...aring-two-audio-components.41014/post-1061130

Good memory. Ron is very precise, so I take him at his word. And he has repeated this goal a few times now. This has big implications for transparency to the recording as well as system selection and set up.

 

[bonzo75]

Ron is very precise, so I take him at his word.

Which one, the one where he mentioned in the room then said that was an error and took it off, or the one where he repeated it a month later?

 

[DasguteOhr]

The dynamic headroom of Admire audio was great on both Mahler and many other classical tracks including new world, and their woofer enclosure is providing the bass. I don’t like the video you posted at all.

See, we finally agree, none of your videos I listened to with headphones really have any good dynamics or good bass.

 

[bonzo75]

See, we finally agree, none of your videos I listened to with headphones really have any good dynamics or good bass.

As long as you hear R80 driven properly by 300b, I am fine with your video assessment

 

[Ron Resnick]

Its not because I disagree that it is a falsehood. IOW it is a falsehood no matter what I think.

With regard to subjective perception, I disagree.

The simple fact is no-one has ever been able to make an amp or speaker that favored a certain genre.

I'm not arguing about electronics.

If a speaker is a good speaker, it won't care what you throw at it.

This is an answer to a slightly different question. I'm not disputing that good speakers can sound good.

I'm reporting that at the very highest levels of reproduction there are subtleties and nuances of loudspeakers which even I can discern and which are more or less convincing with different kinds of music.

Your anecdote describes a situation where something was wrong and wasn't brought out by the jazz and classical recordings you played. But I guarantee there are jazz and classical recordings that would show that system's weaknesses no problem.

This is an assumption. You have not heard the system to which I am referring.

Planars, as I explained earlier, do what they do because of the rear-firing information.

I'm not debating why they do it. I know why they do it. That's not what we're talking about.

If they are set up properly, the information bounced off the wall behind the speaker arrives late enough (about 10mS) that the ear can use it for echo location, causing the image to be more palpable.

I know you didn't intend to, but you just proved my point.

It will do that with any kind of music.

I perceive the effect the most incrementally valuable with vocals.

If you had a speaker with front and rear firing horns it would do the same thing.

But there is no horn speaker like this to my knowledge, so it's a specious reply.

 

[bonzo75]

But there is no horn speaker like this to my knowledge, so it's a specious reply.

There are horns with rear wave. The Bionor you heard has a rear wave, there are some dual FLhs with midbass below having a rear wave. While it may not be same as ribbons or stats, it can lead to wall reflection affecting, positively or negatively depending on distance, your listening

 

[Argonaut]

It sounds beautifully musical, but unfortunately, you can tell that the tubes or output transformers are at their limit. It lacks power and bass. Mahler is a brute force, but unfortunately, that doesn't come across, which is where dynamic headroom comes into play.
Exsampe 97db/ 1watt speaker with 300watt amps

For my part I concur , the Admire Audio system is for the most part an enjoyable presentation of the Mahler Symphony No2 , however is flirting with saturation on a couple of occasions … Listening to both system tracks with eyes closed the second system places me somewhat closer to a corporeal experience at The Barbican or Royal Festival Hall .

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Do you know where in the mid band this distortion in the original TAD occurred ( 2 to 3 k?).

if I remember correct it was a raised plateau in frequency arround 3K5 on 4001

 

[DasguteOhr]

As long as you hear R80 driven properly by 300b, I am fine with your video assessment

If a friend gets the R80 to test, I'll take my preamp+ 300b with him and show you how well it works. But it's a waste of time since you don't like my videos.
9.5 watt at 420volt / 85mA

 

[hopkins]

I get that. Perhaps you should reread what Ron wrote to understand why I asked him for clarification. Ron wrote a very clear description of his goal and it seems independent of what the recording engineer intended. Ron’s description implies to me that he is shaping the sound of his system for a very specific type of presentation. As we all know, Ron is extremely precise with his words.

Understood.

I don't know whether he is shaping the sound of his system for a precise presentation, or just taking as an example those recordings which he enjoys. Once could have the same question reading your posts. This all creates some confusion, for example when you criticize audiophiles for using specific terminology which does not match your experience of live sound.