PCM to DSD...the new PS Audio DAC

My 2 cents.
Sigma Delta - E d. Ok I cannot write the mathermatical symbols here. What this means mathameticall is to add up all (Sigma = summation) of all the small changes (delta).

DSD is just adding those changes digitally to the prior voltage level and then smoothing it out using a low pass filter. Not complicated. What makes it complicated is the noise and the prior voltage level.

PCM is a absolute sample of the full voltage level at a particular interval. 24bit/192khz is the 24 bit absolute digital representation of the signal taken every 192,000 times a second. The PCM signal does not rely on the last voltage level to decide on the current level. A low pass filter is also used to clean out noise although a low pass is critical in the beginning.

So the difference in sound, from a pure mathematical standpoint should theoretically be the same, however Sigma Delta was invented to do a better job a very long time ago for data acquisition. This was when chips, computers etc was very expensive and bits were not freely available.

The sound differences heard is many times in the implementation more than the technology for both high res (DXD, 2DXD). For lower res, there are bigger differences - 16 bits, versus big transient changes if you have a low sampling rate on Sigma Delta.

So the over sampling of the same signal, 10 times, will give you the same signal 10 times. Ok you might get some error correction if a bit was dropped somehow. This new 10 times signal is then converted to another format and/or to analog. What each company ( not technology) is doing is trying to extrapolate the forward bits from the previous bits. This is where the playback seems different.

Then there are the filters put in, which again provides some differences.

If all the conversion on PCM DXD and 2DSD is perfect for the DAC software or hardware, then the important factors for accurate playback is how stable and noisy the power supply is and how good the clock is. I believe this is really what makes a good DAC, if all else is perfect.

So the PS Audio Direct Stream may have an excellent algorithm or it may be the same as Meitner and Koch (fathers of DSD), the above 2 factors will determine the accuracy.

As with everything, preference become the final choice - Too smooth or too sharp?

So PCM and DSD are sort of very different digital representations of the same signal.

Converting FLAC to WAV are both supposed to be identical. However some, TAS for one, has said there is a difference.

As you get to higher and higher resolutions, there are fewer and fewer gaps. On the lower levels, say 16 bits, there would be greater gaps with doing the conversion from one to the other. This is true of almost any conversation.

So I don't have a definitive answer to PCM or DSD, or will the conversion provide any new information (I personally cannot see how information can be made up). But I do have a preference for DSD and in the comparison of a PCM DAC to a DSD DAC, everyone preferred the DSD DAC - when the test was only about the sound and which DAC was better. Nobody was made overtly aware that it was a DSD DAC playing PCM files (since the PCM DAC could only play PCM). We were using 24/192 files.

So the 2nd point is that the DAC's should be compared directly without thought of the underlying technology as you will be playing both files. Just like Cell phones, do you care if it is GSM or CDMA or TDMA? You probably don't even know but have a preference for various reasons. Of course if you have dominatly one type, then that should be the file choice for testing the best DAC for you.

Hopefully I will be able to get this DAC and compare it against a few other DAC's in the near future, assuming PS Audio delivers on time to the overwheming order load they have.
 
my good friend Ted Smith designed the new PS Audio DAC. Ted is one of the smartest people I know. congrats to Ted for the launch of this fine product.

he has had it in my room a number of times over the last five+ years during the development of it from before he hooked up with PS Audio up to just recently. a very nice sounding dac for sure. he used my system (and possibly others?) to check his progress as well as my Playbacks Design MPS-5 in my system as a target.

I'm a large believer in dsd as superior to PCM straight up, and prefer my PCM converted to dsd. my Playback Designs does have 2xdsd as it's native output.

So Mike, the million dollar question is how did it (prototype) compare with your playback designs? I will have one coming in for shootout against my MSB shortly.
 
... the important factors for accurate playback is how stable and noisy the power supply is and how good the clock is. I believe this is really what makes a good DAC, if all else is perfect.

The design & quality of the output stage also plays a significant role in the final results.

As with everything, preference become the final choice - Too smooth or too sharp?

So PCM and DSD are sort of very different digital representations of the same signal.

So I don't have a definitive answer to PCM or DSD, or will the conversion provide any new information (I personally cannot see how information can be made up).

...DAC's should be compared directly without thought of the underlying technology as you will be playing both files.

Agreed, you can only spice it or mash it up, can't create any new information when its not there to begin with. Sound quality and the designer's art is the final factor and not the tech.

david
 
So Mike, the million dollar question is how did it (prototype) compare with your playback designs? I will have one coming in for shootout against my MSB shortly.

over the development period it never quite reached the Playbacks Design MPS-5 level while clearly improving, but I always liked it's sound. the last time it was here, maybe 3-4 months ago (when it was at or nearly at it's final production config) we did not A/B it with the MPS-5 directly......Ted just wanted to hear it in my system.

it is very good. my sense is that I prefer my Playback Designs to Ted's DAC. to be fair, the MPS-5 is roughly twice as expensive. would the PS Audio DAC be competitive with the lower priced Playback Designs dac? I don't know.

I still prefer the MPS-5 to any other digital I have ever heard, so preferring it to the PS-Audio is no knock on the PS Audio.
 
over the development period it never quite reached the Playbacks Design MPS-5 level while clearly improving, but I always liked it's sound. the last time it was here, maybe 3-4 months ago (when it was at or nearly at it's final production config) we did not A/B it with the MPS-5 directly......Ted just wanted to hear it in my system.

it is very good. my sense is that I prefer my Playback Designs to Ted's DAC. to be fair, the MPS-5 is roughly twice as expensive. would the PS Audio DAC be competitive with the lower priced Playback Designs dac? I don't know.

I still prefer the MPS-5 to any other digital I have ever heard, so preferring it to the PS-Audio is no knock on the PS Audio.

Interesting. I'm looking forward to some double blind shootouts of this 4 figure DAC against the five figure top dogs.
 

the 6 Moons article mentions Meitner and Playback Designs as prior users of this approach. Andeas Koch was the digital designer behind the earlier Meitner dsd dacs and also designed the Playback Designs with a programmable dac. interestingly Ted Smith, the designer of the PS Audio DAC, worked in digital audio workstation design with Andreas back in the day.
 
That article and the block diagrams helps clarify (for me, at least) what's going on here, not only with the new PSAudio but also Playback Designs, Nagra and the rational behind converting PCM to DSD in this setting (which it seems to me has more to do with the fact that sigma-delta DACs are being used than any inherent sonic advantage to DSD, but it may not be quite as simple as that either).
 
That article and the block diagrams helps clarify (for me, at least) what's going on here, not only with the new PSAudio but also Playback Designs, Nagra and the rational behind converting PCM to DSD in this setting (which it seems to me has more to do with the fact that sigma-delta DACs are being used than any inherent sonic advantage to DSD, but it may not be quite as simple as that either).

the best reason for a dsd DAC is not up-sampling PCM, it is playing dsd downloads. i have 4000 CD's and many PCM files on my server, including lots of PCM hirez. however; i mostly listen to my 4-5 terabytes of dsd and 2xdsd downloads which sound better than any PCM, upsampled or not. and these dsd files come a good deal closer to the sound of my vinyl and tape than the PCM does. so getting caught up with the whole PCM to dsd converstion just gets in the way of the good stuff.

listen to lots of dsd thru a proper dsd dac, and have lots of analog around to compare directly. the truth about PCM and dsd comes thru loud and clear. theory and listening are 2 different things.
 
listen to lots of dsd thru a proper dsd dac, and have lots of analog around to compare directly. the truth about PCM and dsd comes thru loud and clear. theory and listening are 2 different things.

Oh Mike there you go again. :) You are just a glutton for punishment!
 
The fact is that delta-sigma DACs are closer to DSD than PCM, so the vast majority of all current DACs are basically DSD DAC's, and one way or another PCM must be converted to something similar to DSD to be processed by them. And we've discussed before that many products sold as DSD files have PCM "steps" or "generations" in them.

Edit: I'm not sure that I consider comparison to analog sources a good "absolute sound" reference.
 
the best reason for a dsd DAC is not up-sampling PCM, it is playing dsd downloads. i have 4000 CD's and many PCM files on my server, including lots of PCM hirez. however; i mostly listen to my 4-5 terabytes of dsd and 2xdsd downloads which sound better than any PCM, upsampled or not. and these dsd files come a good deal closer to the sound of my vinyl and tape than the PCM does. so getting caught up with the whole PCM to dsd converstion just gets in the way of the good stuff.

listen to lots of dsd thru a proper dsd dac, and have lots of analog around to compare directly. the truth about PCM and dsd comes thru loud and clear. theory and listening are 2 different things.

How can you evaluate PCM recordings, when your DAC converts them to DSD?
 
The fact is that delta-sigma DACs are closer to DSD than PCM, so the vast majority of all current DACs are basically DSD DAC's, and one way or another PCM must be converted to something similar to DSD to be processed by them. And we've discussed before that many products sold as DSD files have PCM "steps" or "generations" in them.

Edit: I'm not sure that I consider comparison to analog sources a good "absolute sound" reference.

Whether you consider analog a good reference source or not is really moot. The digital copy of the tape should sound exactly the same as the tape it comes from, warts and all. There's something wrong if the DSD or PCM copy adds or subtracts from the original source.
 
Whether you consider analog a good reference source or not is really moot. The digital copy of the tape should sound exactly the same as the tape it comes from, warts and all. There's something wrong if the DSD or PCM copy adds or subtracts from the original source.

Interesting your should say that. The Laser vinyl player was reviewed a few times and the reviewer said it sounded closest to the original tape above anything they had heard. however nobody like it!
 
How can you evaluate PCM recordings, when your DAC converts them to DSD?

over the years i've had dozens of opportunities to compare the Playback Designs PCM to dsd convertion to other dacs/digital players which don't upsample PCM to dsd to have a very strong perspective on that question.

another feature of the Playback Designs is it's programable dac. it's now on 'release #27' of the software. i've had it since 2006 and it's still state of the art in digital performance as it's performance is not static. how many other 8 year old dacs can say that?

and no doubt we are speaking here about preferences, not any one only truth. i do use my analog, both vinyl and tape, as a reference for my digital. i use tape as the reference for my vinyl.
 
Interesting your should say that. The Laser vinyl player was reviewed a few times and the reviewer said it sounded closest to the original tape above anything they had heard. however nobody like it!

But did they have the actual tape in hand or was it tape like sound in a global sense? I've heard some of Bruce's comparisons and they've been very interesting. Of course, I haven't been lucky enough to hear the 2 or 4x DSD comparisons like I imagine Mike has. I've only heard 1x DSD vs the 15 ips tape. At 1x it's not a mirror image.
 
Interesting your should say that. The Laser vinyl player was reviewed a few times and the reviewer said it sounded closest to the original tape above anything they had heard. however nobody like it!

the Laser vinyl player gets the detail, but not the tonality. it's a 'cold fish'. not ready for prime time. and if there is ticks and pops on the Lp it sounds like a howitzer.
 
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Interesting feedback about the Laser pickup. I have read about and know the tick and pop issues (I believe they came up with a box to remove pops)

Myles I should have my PS Audio Directstream upgrade in the next 2 weeks if you wanted to stop by and hear them on CR1's.
 
Interesting feedback about the Laser pickup. I have read about and know the tick and pop issues (I believe they came up with a box to remove pops)

Myles I should have my PS Audio Directstream upgrade in the next 2 weeks if you wanted to stop by and hear them on CR1's.

I think they also include a RCM with every unit sold. :)

That would be really cool. We can talk offline about it!
 
the 6 Moons article mentions Meitner and Playback Designs as prior users of this approach. Andeas Koch was the digital designer behind the earlier Meitner dsd dacs and also designed the Playback Designs with a programmable dac. interestingly Ted Smith, the designer of the PS Audio DAC, worked in digital audio workstation design with Andreas back in the day.

Being compared to the Meitner and Playback Designs DACs puts Ted's DirectStream DAC in a pretty elevated arena. It doesn't get much better than those two.

PS Audio is bringing the DirectStream to next week's Axpona Audio Expo in Chicago. So I'm sure there will be more comments on the DirectStream after that show.
Should be interesting!
 

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