DSD to PCM Conversion A/B Test Results

Believe High Fidelity

[Industry Expert]
Nov 19, 2015
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Hello All,

About a week ago I hosted an Austin Audio Society Event where we took a single DSD track and broke it up into the following conversions from a single DSD file (DSF512):

*D = Dithering
44/16 D
44/16
44/24 D
44/24
44/32 D
44/32
88/16 D
88/16
88/24 D
88/24
88/32 D
88/32
176/16 D
176/16
176/24 D
176/24
176/32 D
176/32
176/32
352/16 D
352/16
352/24 D
352/24
352/32 D
352/32


1686737533569.png

The test track used was Billy Jean by Vanessa Fernandez off of her latest album "I Want You"


This test came off of the frustration I had with two things:

1) I was having to wait far too long (few minutes) to transcode the DSD file to PCM and buffer to Ram in the streamer. The Aries Cerat DAC's I use are all PCM so it has to be converted prior to playback.
2) When using DBPoweramp instead to convert the files to PCM, the end result was inferior sound after conversion by a fair margin.

So I did a lot of digging and asking around and ended up using AuI Converter to get the best results. It is much pricier than DBPoweramp, but having used that for years and using the AuI software it was far superior for this task.

Unfortunately A/B testing was not as popular as some of our other events and the turnout was low, but the results still proved to be useful. I will say this could be part 1 and will get a few more test subjects and do another round to be sure. All tracks were not played in sequential order and randomized and the occasional repeat to see how our subjects could tell if there were consistent differences that were obvious at a given sample rate and bit depth

The fascinating part with the small control group were identical results 50% of the time out of the 10+ comparisons. The ratings for the comparisons were Better, Worse, or Same. It could be more scientific as a double blind test, but I am afraid I dont have that kind of time or interest in going to that extent.

So the Results for Part 1?

-Dithering was a consistent preference
-Both 16 bit and 32 bit depths were least preferred.
-44 and 352 sample rates were the least preferred
-24bit depth was the most preferred with dithering applied irrespective of sample rate
-The differences were not glaring. It was hard by the panel to distinguish a clear winner when they did choose one. So we are talking minor differences that were very hard to tell

All tests were performed using my reference setup

Kaiser Kawero Classic speakers
Vermouth and Top Wing cabling
Aries Cerat Kassandra Limited Edition DAC, Impera Limited Edition Preamp, and Ianus Geminae Mono amplifiers
Pink Faun Ultra Streamer in Stylus mode

When I get around to it I will round up some more test subjects and do another round of testing. I have a very large DSD library, so before I roll up my sleeves and convert them all I want to make sure I choose correctly so I dont have to do it again at a later date.
 

Rexp

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2022
834
314
73
60
Hello All,

About a week ago I hosted an Austin Audio Society Event where we took a single DSD track and broke it up into the following conversions from a single DSD file (DSF512):

*D = Dithering
44/16 D
44/16
44/24 D
44/24
44/32 D
44/32
88/16 D
88/16
88/24 D
88/24
88/32 D
88/32
176/16 D
176/16
176/24 D
176/24
176/32 D
176/32
176/32
352/16 D
352/16
352/24 D
352/24
352/32 D
352/32


View attachment 111894

The test track used was Billy Jean by Vanessa Fernandez off of her latest album "I Want You"


This test came off of the frustration I had with two things:

1) I was having to wait far too long (few minutes) to transcode the DSD file to PCM and buffer to Ram in the streamer. The Aries Cerat DAC's I use are all PCM so it has to be converted prior to playback.
2) When using DBPoweramp instead to convert the files to PCM, the end result was inferior sound after conversion by a fair margin.

So I did a lot of digging and asking around and ended up using AuI Converter to get the best results. It is much pricier than DBPoweramp, but having used that for years and using the AuI software it was far superior for this task.

Unfortunately A/B testing was not as popular as some of our other events and the turnout was low, but the results still proved to be useful. I will say this could be part 1 and will get a few more test subjects and do another round to be sure. All tracks were not played in sequential order and randomized and the occasional repeat to see how our subjects could tell if there were consistent differences that were obvious at a given sample rate and bit depth

The fascinating part with the small control group were identical results 50% of the time out of the 10+ comparisons. The ratings for the comparisons were Better, Worse, or Same. It could be more scientific as a double blind test, but I am afraid I dont have that kind of time or interest in going to that extent.

So the Results for Part 1?

-Dithering was a consistent preference
-Both 16 bit and 32 bit depths were least preferred.
-44 and 352 sample rates were the least preferred
-24bit depth was the most preferred with dithering applied irrespective of sample rate
-The differences were not glaring. It was hard by the panel to distinguish a clear winner when they did choose one. So we are talking minor differences that were very hard to tell

All tests were performed using my reference setup

Kaiser Kawero Classic speakers
Vermouth and Top Wing cabling
Aries Cerat Kassandra Limited Edition DAC, Impera Limited Edition Preamp, and Ianus Geminae Mono amplifiers
Pink Faun Ultra Streamer in Stylus mode

When I get around to it I will round up some more test subjects and do another round of testing. I have a very large DSD library, so before I roll up my sleeves and convert them all I want to make sure I choose correctly so I dont have to do it again at a later date.
Is this a good album to use I wonder, cuz it was recorded all analog and mastered by Bernie G for vinyl and SACD/CD. So your copy is already an upsampled version of the digital master?
 
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dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
3,479
2,858
1,410
Is this a good album to use I wonder, cuz it was recorded all analog and mastered by Bernie G for vinyl and SACD/CD. So your copy is already an upsampled version of the digital master?

How is it upsampled if it was recorded directly to DSD from analog?
 

aLLeARS

VIP/Donor
Feb 20, 2020
66
242
253
60
Hello All,

About a week ago I hosted an Austin Audio Society Event where we took a single DSD track and broke it up into the following conversions from a single DSD file (DSF512):

*D = Dithering
44/16 D
44/16
44/24 D
44/24
44/32 D
44/32
88/16 D
88/16
88/24 D
88/24
88/32 D
88/32
176/16 D
176/16
176/24 D
176/24
176/32 D
176/32
176/32
352/16 D
352/16
352/24 D
352/24
352/32 D
352/32


View attachment 111894

The test track used was Billy Jean by Vanessa Fernandez off of her latest album "I Want You"


This test came off of the frustration I had with two things:

1) I was having to wait far too long (few minutes) to transcode the DSD file to PCM and buffer to Ram in the streamer. The Aries Cerat DAC's I use are all PCM so it has to be converted prior to playback.
2) When using DBPoweramp instead to convert the files to PCM, the end result was inferior sound after conversion by a fair margin.

So I did a lot of digging and asking around and ended up using AuI Converter to get the best results. It is much pricier than DBPoweramp, but having used that for years and using the AuI software it was far superior for this task.

Unfortunately A/B testing was not as popular as some of our other events and the turnout was low, but the results still proved to be useful. I will say this could be part 1 and will get a few more test subjects and do another round to be sure. All tracks were not played in sequential order and randomized and the occasional repeat to see how our subjects could tell if there were consistent differences that were obvious at a given sample rate and bit depth

The fascinating part with the small control group were identical results 50% of the time out of the 10+ comparisons. The ratings for the comparisons were Better, Worse, or Same. It could be more scientific as a double blind test, but I am afraid I dont have that kind of time or interest in going to that extent.

So the Results for Part 1?

-Dithering was a consistent preference
-Both 16 bit and 32 bit depths were least preferred.
-44 and 352 sample rates were the least preferred
-24bit depth was the most preferred with dithering applied irrespective of sample rate
-The differences were not glaring. It was hard by the panel to distinguish a clear winner when they did choose one. So we are talking minor differences that were very hard to tell

All tests were performed using my reference setup

Kaiser Kawero Classic speakers
Vermouth and Top Wing cabling
Aries Cerat Kassandra Limited Edition DAC, Impera Limited Edition Preamp, and Ianus Geminae Mono amplifiers
Pink Faun Ultra Streamer in Stylus mode

When I get around to it I will round up some more test subjects and do another round of testing. I have a very large DSD library, so before I roll up my sleeves and convert them all I want to make sure I choose correctly so I dont have to do it again at a later date.
Interesting. Thanks for taking the time to do this and post your results.
I was involved in the very first DSD recording circa 1997 and have engineered several DSD releases since.
I've always preferred the sound of DSD over PCM.
What type of dither did you use for your test?
They all sound different. Standard triangular dither doesn't provide the most detail but it seems to have the least deleterious effect on midrange of the bunch. IMHO
 

Rexp

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2022
834
314
73
60
How is it upsampled if it was recorded directly to DSD from analog?

'NativeDSD exclusively offers this recording in Stereo DSD 128, DSD 256, and DSD 512. These special editions of I Want You were created in the DSD Domain by Tom Caulfield at NativeDSD Mastering Studios using the Signalyst HQ Player 4 Pro mastering software'

I took the above quote from nativedsd.com to mean the DSD512 came from the SACD master?
 

Believe High Fidelity

[Industry Expert]
Nov 19, 2015
1,666
321
355
Hutto TX
ibelieveinhifi.com

Believe High Fidelity

[Industry Expert]
Nov 19, 2015
1,666
321
355
Hutto TX
ibelieveinhifi.com
Interesting. Thanks for taking the time to do this and post your results.
I was involved in the very first DSD recording circa 1997 and have engineered several DSD releases since.
I've always preferred the sound of DSD over PCM.
What type of dither did you use for your test?
They all sound different. Standard triangular dither doesn't provide the most detail but it seems to have the least deleterious effect on midrange of the bunch. IMHO

The AuI software has only one option for dithering which is their own. I have never used dithering in the past, but then again I have never converted DSD in the past either until about a year ago.
 

Believe High Fidelity

[Industry Expert]
Nov 19, 2015
1,666
321
355
Hutto TX
ibelieveinhifi.com
'NativeDSD exclusively offers this recording in Stereo DSD 128, DSD 256, and DSD 512. These special editions of I Want You were created in the DSD Domain by Tom Caulfield at NativeDSD Mastering Studios using the Signalyst HQ Player 4 Pro mastering software'

I took the above quote from nativedsd.com to mean the DSD512 came from the SACD master?

I did purchase this album from nativedsd.com. I interpret it as the album was recorded and encoded in DSD as a digital file (which I purchased an downloaded) rather than "from" a SACD master. There could very well be a file that was made into an SACD
 
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Rexp

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2022
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I did purchase this album from nativedsd.com. I interpret it as the album was recorded and encoded in DSD as a digital file (which I purchased an downloaded) rather than "from" a SACD master. There could very well be a file that was made into an SACD
'The album was recorded at United Recording Studios (former known as Oceanway Studios) in Hollywood and was mixed at Sphere Studios in Burbank and Capital Recording Studios in Hollywood. All recording, tracking, and mixing was done 100% analog. Michael C. Ross recorded the album in United Recording Studio B over four days on a 24 track Studer Recorder using 2-inch analog tape running at 30 ips. The final 30 ips 1/4 inch stereo master tape was used by Bernie Grundman to create the Stereo DSD 64 master.'
 

Believe High Fidelity

[Industry Expert]
Nov 19, 2015
1,666
321
355
Hutto TX
ibelieveinhifi.com
I’d be interested to learn more about the Pink Faun, never heard of it.

Here is a good intro and I plan to add a video tutorial of Stylus (their playback software) soon

 

Audio_Builder

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2020
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The Aries Cerat Kassandra Limited Edition DAC used for your tests has an AD1865 ADC chip. It is an 18-bit part. This means that any and all data sent to the Kassandra Limited Edition DAC is converted to no more than 18-bits at it's analog output. Since this is not an audio standard I am assuming it is actually 16-bits being sent to the AD1865. So, regardless of the data you sent the Aries Cerat Kassandra Limited Edition DAC you only hear 16-bits from it.

It looks like you tested the capability of the Aries Cerat Kassandra Limited Edition DAC to convert files down to 16-bit PCM
 
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Believe High Fidelity

[Industry Expert]
Nov 19, 2015
1,666
321
355
Hutto TX
ibelieveinhifi.com
Well the opinions based on scientific data (looked and asked for the easy button) were all over the place from what is the right sampling rate to bit depth so figured we would try them all. Logically what you say makes sense, but it didn't pan out that way from the results. So thats where I want to do a part 2 before I start converting my library
 

Believe High Fidelity

[Industry Expert]
Nov 19, 2015
1,666
321
355
Hutto TX
ibelieveinhifi.com
I don’t think there are many recordings that have more than 18 bits of resolution.

This is very true. So one would think that a higher bit depth would not make a difference. So rather than dismiss this entirely, I am always looking for new and relevant content to promote to the member of the society. If it is just 1's and 0's that make up the audio performance in the DAC then an A/B test would be clearly evident in the playback. Taking my bias out of it (because we all have it) I used volunteers to prove this. Initial run says there is something about 24bit that works better in my test system. May be different from yours or anyone else's.

Either way, I thought it would be of interest to the group and thought I would share
 
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Joe Whip

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Feb 8, 2014
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My point on the 18 bits oc resolution is in regards to the prior post about the chip in the DAC used. The chip in the DAC was more than sufficient for your test.
 

Rexp

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2022
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I wonder why? Why not DSD128 or DSD256 or even 512??
Guess they were only interested in making a SACD at the time. What has changed since you did your DSD Battle thread, what is now the best A to D?
 

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