WHY are high-efficiency speakers are better at conveying emotion of music vs. audiophile vocabulary?

[caesar]

...perhaps the question is: Is this so? It's unclear to me how you calculated "most" in your hypothesis. But OK by me, as I have no horse in this race. Carry on.

If you read the thread from the beginning, Morricab and others brilliantly make the case for it - objectively. If that is not so for you, subjectively, all good. this is a big enough for everyone.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...actually, I have read along. This was an interesting post from 2018:

"Caesar,

I thought that such invitations to stay out of the thread if we do not agree with the main statement were a thing of the past in WBF. Particularly when the opening sentence is used to denigrate one class of speakers."

I recognize you don't actually like to be questioned on such things. No problem to stay out of your sandbox. I thought I asked a simple question regarding your thesis. Carry on without me. Cheers...

 

[microstrip]

not really. most people perceive high efficiency speakers as more nimble, dynamic, and alive. In those aspects they are closer to reality. The question is why is this so?

Considering that most people prefer and own medium efficiency speakers, not high efficiency, should we consider that most people dislike "nimble dynamic and alive" sound).

Preference is surely an individual subjective matter. But when we make statistics on it, it becomes an objective matter and can be questioned.

In fact, although I do not have numbers to support it, my perception is that most audiophiles still perceive horns as colored and/or aggressive.

 

[morricab]

Considering that most people prefer and own medium efficiency speakers, not high efficiency, should we consider that most people dislike "nimble dynamic and alive" sound).

Preference is surely an individual subjective matter. But when we make statistics on it, it becomes an objective matter and can be questioned.

In fact, although I do not have numbers to support it, my perception is that most audiophiles still perceive horns as colored and/or aggressive.

Don't worry Micro, it only indicates the slow and steady decline in Western Civilization... . We went from the mighty Western Electric to the not-so-mighty box/cone/dome 87dB speaker.

 

[morricab]

Hi Morricab, thanks for chiming in! Anyone who has a passion for high efficiency speakers and SET amplification owes you a HUGE DEBT of GRATITIDE!

Ironically at Axpona, they had 4 monstrous d'agostino monoblocks connected!

THX! Just passing along the passion... I wonder what would happen if they attached 4 large SET (like a NAT Magma or AC triodeFET amp) to those M9s rather than big SS monsters?? I bet you would get a much more agreeable sound from the speakers. One of the things I have done in the way of experimentation is to try out mid power SET amps on speakers with moderate sensitivity (like form 88-92 dB). You know, what people "know" can't work. It turns out that in a normal room with normal listening levels most systems are in single digit watts for nearly the whole listening session. So, unsurprisingly it works quite well...unless the speaker has a really difficult impedance curve...particularly at low frequencies. While it doesn't give you the same punch as a good horn it can take what many would say is a so-so speaker and makes it sound WAY better. So, the M9 with better sounding electronics than what you heard will definitely sound a lot better...how much? No idea.

I seem to remember Peter A, back when he had Magico M3s, swapped out his Pass Labs amps for Lamm hybrids and even tried his ML2 18 watt SETs on them and found it to sound a lot better than the not-so-good sounding Pass amps (I haven't heard any First Watt stuff but the normal Pass Labs amps to my ears don't sound good)...so much of the issue synthetic sound, which is what I will call from what I glean from your M9 experience, is the electronics used in the thinking that those kinds of speakers "need" high powered beasts.

The absolute best I ever heard a Wilson speaker sound was playing the original Wilson X1 Grand SLAMM (V1 and V3) with a 30 watt KR Audio integrated amp. People seem to forget that the X1 was very easy to drive at a true 95dB with a very benign impedance curve. Those that owned the speakers were gobsmacked...they had never heard their X1s sound that good before. Those speakers LOVED a good 30 watt tube amp. That was a speaker with both good micro and macro dynamics...not world class but definitely a cut above other cone/dome box speakers. Funny thing is that each subsequent big Wilson got harder to drive...and then by no loner being able to use the best sounding amps the whole system sound gets worse even if objectively the newer speakers are somewhat objectively "better".

 

[microstrip]

Don't worry Micro, it only indicates the slow and steady decline in Western Civilization... . We went from the mighty Western Electric to the not-so-mighty box/cone/dome 87dB speaker.

IMO the decline was the fault of Lee de Forest in 1906 when he invented the triode. True sound reproduction of music should have stayed purely mechanical - long ago I got and restored an Edison Phonograph and an HMV gramophone. Unfortunately the gramophone plays too loud for late night listening and has no volume control - it is why I also have an expensive stereo system ...

 

[Kingrex]

IMO the decline was the fault of Lee de Forest in 1906 when he invented the triode. True sound reproduction of music should have stayed purely mechanical - long ago I got and restored an Edison Phonograph and an HMV gramophone. Unfortunately the gramophone plays too loud for late night listening and has no volume control - it is why I also have an expensive stereo system ...

Old sock will work as a volume control.

 

[microstrip]

Old sock will work as a volume control.

Oh, no! Not transparent enough ...

 

[morricab]

IMO the decline was the fault of Lee de Forest in 1906 when he invented the triode. True sound reproduction of music should have stayed purely mechanical - long ago I got and restored an Edison Phonograph and an HMV gramophone. Unfortunately the gramophone plays too loud for late night listening and has no volume control - it is why I also have an expensive stereo system ...

I have heard a few gramophones and they do sound pretty amazing in many ways...they are definitely too loud for many situations.

 

[Kingrex]

Considering that most people prefer and own medium efficiency speakers, not high efficiency, should we consider that most people dislike "nimble dynamic and alive" sound).

Preference is surely an individual subjective matter. But when we make statistics on it, it becomes an objective matter and can be questioned.

In fact, although I do not have numbers to support it, my perception is that most audiophiles still perceive horns as colored and/or aggressive.

I think a lot of people like the heavy handed, robust sound of high power SS amps and low efficiency ported box speakers. Its a sound. Its not a sound that tries to be as close to live unamplified music as can be. But its also a sound you can't get with SET and horns. Its punchy, robust and full of bass. Its also very clear with 0 hiss. That Black background. I would not say anyone that prefers that is doing something wrong. Its their taste. And the manufacturer are building to it.

Sort of like with a car. Someone might brag they can do Nuremberg in 12 minutes. Someone else might say it takes 30 minutes in their Bentley. Maybe. Their not sure. They were sitting in the back sipping Scotch.

 

[PeterA]

I seem to remember Peter A, back when he had Magico M3s, swapped out his Pass Labs amps for Lamm hybrids and even tried his ML2 18 watt SETs on them and found it to sound a lot better than the not-so-good sounding Pass amps (I haven't heard any First Watt stuff but the normal Pass Labs amps to my ears don't sound good)...so much of the issue synthetic sound, which is what I will call from what I glean from your M9 experience, is the electronics used in the thinking that those kinds of speakers "need" high powered beasts.

Good memory, Brad. I actually had the Magico Q3, but the rest is accurate. I compared the entire Pass chain to the entire Lamm chain with the M1.100 W hybrid. The sound was considerably more natural.

As I had gone as far as I thought I could with the set up for a more natural sound, I asked DDK about my system. He said the turntable was what was holding it back. So I got the big Micro Seiki turntable. Big improvement. Then I asked about the speakers. He said Magico is not the problem. It is the electronics, so he sent me both the ML2 and the M1.1 along with the preamp and phono stage. The Lamm simply sounded more natural. Much more open and dynamic with better tone. The SET had some magic, but could not drive the speakers. That’s when I decided to get the corner horns.

The point is that it is the combination of electronics and speaker that make the magic.

 

[microstrip]

I think a lot of people like the heavy handed, robust sound of high power SS amps and low efficiency ported box speakers. Its a sound. Its not a sound that tries to be as close to live unamplified music as can be.

Well, sound reproduction is so far from live unamplified music that what is closer depends mainly on our biases and preferences. As I said before, listening to live music is excellent to create and feed our own preference, making it more solid and bullet proof, but not to support general absolute statements. Just IMO, YMMV.

 

[Robh3606]

Considering that most people prefer and own medium efficiency speakers, not high efficiency, should we consider that most people dislike "nimble dynamic and alive" sound).

Preference is surely an individual subjective matter. But when we make statistics on it, it becomes an objective matter and can be questioned.

In fact, although I do not have numbers to support it, my perception is that most audiophiles still perceive horns as colored and/or aggressive.

I would not say anyone would dislike "alive" sound. I think it's more what can I drop in my living room. It's all Hofman's Iron Law. You don't get high efficiency and bass without large speakers, Not many people can drop a pair of dual 15" 8 cubic ft enclosures in their living room.

I get the same perception that many feel horns are compromised. I don't get it but then again I don't know what they have heard or the circumstances. Also wonder if it's just parroting with no real world experience.

In any case high efficiency speakers are on the right side of the power curve and that does make a difference.

Rob