What are members recommendations on current turntables in the $15K to $22K price range?

[jespera]

With a massive platter and good bearing, inertia/momentum is very constant and there is no need for continuous checking and adjusting the motor. I think the Technics platter is not very heavy, but it is all relative and there seem to be many opinions on what combination sounds best.

Sorry just to be clear, consider the following belt drive physics experiment:

1/ the motor rotates at a constant speed with infinite momentum.

2/ the platter rotates with it.

3/ the platter is suddenly disturbed by a force of sorts. Say needle drag.

Q: what happens?

A: the platter speed will oscillate at a frequency determined by the mass of the platter m and the spring constant k of the belt. Specifically f = sqrt(k/m).

Thats what i meant by the feedback system of the belt drive.

The bigger the mass, and the stiffer the belt is, the smaller the amplitude.

This is not disimilar to the electronic technics feedback system. However, in that system the spring constant k is regulated in time by some electronic system, aka control theory.

 

[Atmasphere]

Why should we consider that the people who own the other turntables are the fools and you are the wise man?

Well for starters I don't consider that people who own turntables to be fools . But I've done a lot of shows and used a lot of different machines, and you may not be aware that we've been made own 'table for about 22 years (Atma-Sphere 208).

As far as I'm concerned, the 208 easily kept up with any of the 'tables I've used at shows and a lot them that I heard that cost multiples more. It was uncolored, you could thwack the platter as a record was playing and barely hear anything in the speakers; the platter was very dead as was the plinth (which was also very rigid, being machined of solid aluminum). So at high volumes the sound didn't fall apart. But I think the Technics is a better machine- with minor modification, which is the arm and platter pad. So at this point our 208 is all but discontinued.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Feedback: … belt driven turntables have a feedback system in the form of a rotating platter suspended in a belt …

why servo's (can) suck.

In order to pick up sound accurately from the analog disc, the rotation of the platter must be rotated at a constant speed without any “fluctuation”. In general, accurate rotation is obtained by servo control by negative feedback, but at the micro level, if it rotates or becomes faster, it detects it and slows it, and repeats the operation to make it faster if it gets slower. Although this level and cycle are determined by the gain of the control system and the loop speed, the period of the speed control of the platter which is the mechanical system surely comes into the audio band. In general, accurate rotation is obtained by servo control by negative feedback, but at the micro level, if it rotates or becomes faster, it detects it and slows it, and repeats the operation to make it faster if it gets slower. If you try to measure a period with a small level, you can not measure the instantaneous state, so you measure the average value. Therefore, fine vibration generated by servo control can not be measured by the measuring instrument, it depends on the human ear.

only our ears can settle this whole speed thing. it's all relative with the ears. you need turntables side by side to hear how they are doing. then it's 'ah-ha'.

there is being happy, or being happiest.

 

[Atmasphere]

What generation of Oracle mat? I had a few types and liked them, but most were self adherent to the platter - once put in service they become the best, no possible comparison!

Yes- for comparison that's a problem. They make that mat right now.

Warren Gehl of ARC spent years designing a platter pad about 3 decades ago. He built it to simultaneously damp the platter and otherwise be the same hardness (durometer) as the LP itself, so that it would not reflect energy at any frequency- it would simply be absorbed as heat.

He figured it out. The pad weighed about 5 pounds and we (meaning 'us local audiophiles that knew him') found that any turntable that had that mat sounded better than one that didn't as long as the mat could be accommodated. That's the pad that's on my machine and was the missing link to getting LPs I recorded to sound like my master tapes.

The Oracle is made of delrin if I'm not mistaken and you can vary the hardness of that stuff during the manufacturing process. Its pretty close to the LP. Its not Warren's mat but its really good. So that's the mat I recommend since Warren's mat will never get made again.

why servo's (can) suck.

only our ears can settle this whole speed thing.

And why they can be excellent... Technics, being a Panasonic company, has good access to R&D expertise. While control theory isn't well understood in audio, anywhere else in the electronics world it is. So they had all these servo speed issues sorted out a long time ago. And I agree, only our ears can sort it out.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

And why they can be excellent... Technics, being a Panasonic company, has good access to R&D expertise. While control theory isn't well understood in audio, anywhere else in the electronics world it is. So they had all these servo speed issues sorted out a long time ago. And I agree, only our ears can sort it out.

unfortunately they don't necessarily know what they are listening for. so their sorting out is no more valid that any other's. R&D budget performance relevance is relative to your reference. unless you are racing or killing. i've owned SP-10 Mk2's and MK3's. they do plenty of things right. but are not the last word.

lot's of turntables sound pretty good. beyond that it's preference. mine is non servo so far.

 

[dcathro]

Fortunately it is all recorded there and our readers will be able to see the manipulation.

I thought it was funny!

 

[tima]

@Mike Lavigne

If these are not your words, I encourage you to attribute them.

"In order to pick up sound accurately from the analog disc, the rotation of the platter must be rotated at a constant speed without any “fluctuation”. In general, accurate rotation is obtained by servo control by negative feedback, but at the micro level, if it rotates or becomes faster, it detects it and slows it, and repeats the operation to make it faster if it gets slower. Although this level and cycle are determined by the gain of the control system and the loop speed, the period of the speed control of the platter which is the mechanical system surely comes into the audio band. In general, accurate rotation is obtained by servo control by negative feedback, but at the micro level, if it rotates or becomes faster, it detects it and slows it, and repeats the operation to make it faster if it gets slower. If you try to measure a period with a small level, you can not measure the instantaneous state, so you measure the average value. Therefore, fine vibration generated by servo control can not be measured by the measuring instrument, it depends on the human ear."

 

[Mike Lavigne]

@Mike Lavigne

If these are not your words, I encourage you to attribute them.

"In order to pick up sound accurately from the analog disc, the rotation of the platter must be rotated at a constant speed without any “fluctuation”. In general, accurate rotation is obtained by servo control by negative feedback, but at the micro level, if it rotates or becomes faster, it detects it and slows it, and repeats the operation to make it faster if it gets slower. Although this level and cycle are determined by the gain of the control system and the loop speed, the period of the speed control of the platter which is the mechanical system surely comes into the audio band. In general, accurate rotation is obtained by servo control by negative feedback, but at the micro level, if it rotates or becomes faster, it detects it and slows it, and repeats the operation to make it faster if it gets slower. If you try to measure a period with a small level, you can not measure the instantaneous state, so you measure the average value. Therefore, fine vibration generated by servo control can not be measured by the measuring instrument, it depends on the human ear."

these words were on the CS Port website in the LFT1 section when i first bought mine, either written by them, or something they found and used. this was at least a year or so ago. now it's no longer on the site. i've not asked why they removed it.

i've had the same thoughts but never found it so elegantly expressed. so i copied it, but had to clean up the confusing "jinglish" (Japanese English) on some of the phrases......so its a paraphrase......not an exact copy. i always put quotes around it so it's clear i did not write it. but i really do not know who did.

there is something so involving with serious non servo tt efforts, both my CS Port and Saskia are such designs.

i post it on threads where this whole "feedback/servo" subject comes up as it does put a good point on the non servo viewpoint.

 

[tima]

Turntable System?LFT1?Products

?????????? ???????????????????????????1...

www.csport.audio

Thanks Mike - I believe it is important to give a reference for quotes - maybe that's a holdover from my academic life - because it provides value to the quote.. Anonymous quotes have less authority and authors are due acknowlegement for what they say. Granted "it's just audio" yet transparency is a virtue, at least imo.

Now to the topic ...

It is good to see this: ""In order to pick up sound accurately from the analog disc, the rotation of the platter must be rotated at a constant speed without any “fluctuation”",

From Mike's quote: "In general, accurate rotation is obtained by servo control by negative feedback, but at the micro level, if it rotates or becomes faster, it detects it and slows it, and repeats the operation to make it faster if it gets slower. If you try to measure a period with a small level, you can not measure the instantaneous state, so you measure the average value."

That is a standard 'critique' of servo driven speed control that could have been written ten or twenty years ago and I take it from that perspective. I believe contemporary technology suggests an addendum or rewrite may add information and clarity.

While there may be no such thing as instantaneous feedback (correct here if that's wrong), modern technology can bring feedback to 'near instantaneous' and holds the further promise of asymptotically approaching instantaneous. The period of 'averaging' can get smaller and smaller.

What I'm talking about, just for clarity, is the gathering of platter speed data, the return of that data to a controller, the controller's assesment of that data, and subsequent controller modification of motor speed, plus or minus, or the controller doing nothing when no adjustment is needed. That may be simplistic, but I think it's the jist of things.

To give an example of actual implementation I use the GPA Monaco 2 turntable. Optical sensors read marks engraved on an encoder ring at the platter's circumfrence. These are reported to the controller (a 40 MIPS computer) at a rate of 166,289 times per second. The computer can activate over 1000 speed corrections per second. Effectively the platter is controlled to run at
33-? rpm, with speed maintaned on the order of 0.0001% (1 ppm) peak speed deviation from 33-? rpm. That works out to maybe 1 speed adjustment per LP side. Essentially it is computer driven communication technology. Lighter weight platters are more responsive to motor control, less torque is more responsive to motor control.

This is not a critique of non-servo driven platter control. It is a different approach using different technology. It's not your mother's servo technology of the past.

Imo, this approach makes the assessment of faster or slower by our ears no longer viable. Some will say "I cannot hear a sub-second speed change", and that may be true. However the benefit of correct rotation speed is heard in other ways such as tonality and dynamics. There is something so involving with serious turntable accuracy.

 

[jespera]

Ultimately, our ears will tell us what speed control system (electric, elastic belt, idler, electronic, or mix) response we prefer.

But to say that it cant be measured (within some tolerance) is just wrong. Cs port may not be able to, or cant be bothered, but im sure technics/panasonic or a tech university could do it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Turntable System?LFT1?Products

?????????? ???????????????????????????1...

www.csport.audio

Thanks Mike - I believe it is important to give a reference for quotes - maybe that's a holdover from my academic life - because it provides value to the quote.. Anonymous quotes have less authority and authors are due acknowlegement for what they say. Granted "it's just audio" yet transparency is a virtue, at least imo.

Now to the topic ...

It is good to see this: ""In order to pick up sound accurately from the analog disc, the rotation of the platter must be rotated at a constant speed without any “fluctuation”",

From Mike's quote: "In general, accurate rotation is obtained by servo control by negative feedback, but at the micro level, if it rotates or becomes faster, it detects it and slows it, and repeats the operation to make it faster if it gets slower. If you try to measure a period with a small level, you can not measure the instantaneous state, so you measure the average value."

That is a standard 'critique' of servo driven speed control that could have been written ten or twenty years ago and I take it from that perspective. I believe contemporary technology suggests an addendum or rewrite may add information and clarity.

While there may be no such thing as instantaneous feedback (correct here if that's wrong), modern technology can bring feedback to 'near instantaneous' and holds the further promise of asymptotically approaching instantaneous. The period of 'averaging' can get smaller and smaller.

What I'm talking about, just for clarity, is the gathering of platter speed data, the return of that data to a controller, the controller's assesment of that data, and subsequent controller modification of motor speed, plus or minus, or the controller doing nothing when no adjustment is needed. That may be simplistic, but I think it's the jist of things.

To give an example of actual implementation I use the GPA Monaco 2 turntable. Optical sensors read marks engraved on an encoder ring at the platter's circumfrence. These are reported to the controller (a 40 MIPS computer) at a rate of 166,289 times per second. The computer can activate over 1000 speed corrections per second. Effectively the platter is controlled to run at
33-? rpm, with speed maintaned on the order of 0.0001% (1 ppm) peak speed deviation from 33-? rpm. That works out to maybe 1 speed adjustment per LP side. Essentially it is computer driven communication technology. Lighter weight platters are more responsive to motor control, less torque is more responsive to motor control.

This is not a critique of non-servo driven platter control. It is a different approach using different technology. It's not your mother's servo technology of the past.

Imo, this approach makes the assessment of faster or slower by our ears no longer viable. Some will say "I cannot hear a sub-second speed change", and that may be true. However the benefit of correct rotation speed is heard in other ways such as tonality and dynamics. There is something so involving with serious turntable accuracy.

the technical argument is what it is. my view is that numbers only get us close enough for our senses to arbitrate success, or degrees of it at least.

the test is to have the GPA Monaco and CS Port side by side and make a choice. but i can go one better with my NVS.

i suspect that Innovative Drive has the techie chops to at least match the GPA Monaco's speed accuracy with designing and building my direct drive Wave Kinetics NVS turntable. they build robots for NASA among other projects (Panasonic/Technics likely not at their pure tech level either). and my CS Port get's directly compared almost daily.

i certainly enjoy my long term reference NVS. but i mostly listen to my CS Port.....and Saskia.

we come back to our ears and preferences. i've tasted the best of direct drive with my Rockport for 8 years and the NVS for 11 years so far. for a year i had the original GPA Monaco in my system and could never connect with it. i know the later versions were better.

i think our ears tell us the comparative musical truth. numbers do not.

 

[tima]

i think our ears tell us the comparative musical truth. numbers do not.

Sure - that's a safe standard response, people will nod their heads and few would disagree. No one in this thread is saying to choose a turntable based on numbers. There is no need to 'come back to our ears' because we never left them.

I was not responding to you so much as responding to the CS Port characterization of servo driven turntables that you quoted. I assume the CS Port quote was part of advertising copy, trying to make a case for their product by claiming weakness in another approach. I noted that maybe the quote did not take into account the advances of the modern day. It was not a challenge to your CS Port or your 11 year old NVS. It was not a 'technical argument', it was an explanation of a different approach to one aspect of turntable construction.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Ultimately, our ears will tell us what speed control system (electric, elastic belt, idler, electronic, or mix) response we prefer.

But to say that it cant be measured (within some tolerance) is just wrong. Cs port may not be able to, or cant be bothered, but im sure technics/panasonic or a tech university could do it.

well, maybe they could.....or not. the owner/designer of CS Port was in charge of engineering, then CEO, for a large industrial power supply company before he retired to open CS Port. i suspect he might know how that goes. whether you can measure the instantaneous state....or not? or that you have to 'settle' for a slight degree of averaging?

but i can't say that i know that. i guess i will ask my phd in physics son-in-law about it.

 

[jespera]

well, maybe they could.....or not. the owner/designer of CS Port was in charge of engineering, then CEO, for a large industrial power supply company before he retired to open CS Port. i suspect he might know how that goes. whether you can measure the instantaneous state....or not? or that you have to 'settle' for a slight degree of averaging?

but i can't say that i know that. i guess i will ask my phd in physics son-in-law about it.

it aint flipping quantum physics — see if the boy is worth his salt. Ask him how he would do it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

it aint flipping quantum physics — see if the boy is worth his salt. Ask him how he would do it.

to the degree i understand, he seems to be worth his salt. he ran a team of researchers for 10 years for the research arm of a multi-national company. Mitutoyo-RDA. now he does large data number crunching and some A.I. for the Paul Allen Brain Institute.

when i ask him techie things relative to hifi it's not unusual for him to tell me (1) that it's one of those things we don't know, or (2) give me a budget and lab team and he can investigate it, or (3) i get the big eye roll and a laugh. sometimes he has used the tech i'm asking about such as when i asked him about the Tourmaline anti-static air guns. he told me when he was doing his post doc research his team used tourmaline blowers to remove dust from the sensors to improve the accuracy of the test data.

i never expect him to just spout something. but this question might be quantum physics.

 

[jespera]

to the degree i understand, he seems to be worth his salt. he ran a team of researchers for 10 years for the research arm of a multi-national company. Mitutoyo-RDA. now he does large data number crunching and some A.I. for the Paul Allen Brain Institute.

when i ask him techie things relative to hifi it's not unusual for him to tell me (1) that it's one of those things we don't know, or (2) give me a budget and lab team and he can investigate it, or (3) i get the big eye roll and a laugh. sometimes he has used the tech i'm asking about such as when i asked him about the Tourmaline anti-static air guns. he told me when he was doing his post doc research his team used tourmaline blowers to remove dust from the sensors to improve the accuracy of the test data.

i never expect him to just spout something.

if he cant figure it out, then leave him in the library. Then i will, for free, give you 3-7 different ways of doing it.

But try him first.

 

[Audire]

In the 15-22k range, you may desire to look at a J. Sikora with KV-12 tonearm.

J. Sikora

 

[Mike Lavigne]

a taste of CS Port. video of the TAT2 compared to the Technics SL-1000R.......but commentary not in English. compare starts at the 9 minute mark. no idea if this was a fair fight, as the finer points are lost in translation.....which i why i call it a taste. in any case the SL1000R (with it's perfect speed) is not chopped liver.

 

[ashandger]

Mike, many thanks for sharing. Any chance you could give us a taste of your wonderful CS Port? Appreciate all the issues/limitations of posting a video but a taste would be wonderful and most enjoyable and appreciated. No worries if not possible. Many thanks

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, many thanks for sharing. Any chance you could give us a taste of your wonderful CS Port? Appreciate all the issues/limitations of posting a video but a taste would be wonderful and most enjoyable and appreciated. No worries if not possible. Many thanks

i will ponder that request.