Trinity DAC

[TRINITY]

Dietmar - I would rather NOT give as much technical details, as I'm sure more than one competitor is studying the design now, to understand what you have done here.

Hi Elberoth,
you are right, but I just wanted to Show that such a design is very solid engineering, where you have to read any parameter in each datasheet and where you have to calculate things instead of "try and error" approaches and it takes 30 years of engineering experiences in top research labs and not just to watch a “youtube video” to get at this level and of course you have to think in Addition outside the box to create such architectures.
KR Dietmar

 

[spiritofmusic]

Audiocrack, do you know of anyone who represents Trinity in the UK?

 

[Audiocrack]

Audiocrack, do you know of anyone who represents Trinity in the UK?

I do not know but you might ask Dietmar.

 

[Jazzhead]

Dietmar - I would rather NOT give as much technical details, as I'm sure more than one competitor is studying the design now, to understand what you have done here.

What's to stop the competition from getting their hands on one and taking it apart . Sure they will be able to figure out the architecture . So really not much harm done , by explaining things here , thats my guess .

 

[Elberoth]

If I were the manufacturer, I would at least let them buy one, instead of putting all the data on the table

 

[microstrip]

Hi Elberoth,
you are right, but I just wanted to Show that such a design is very solid engineering, where you have to read any parameter in each datasheet and where you have to calculate things instead of "try and error" approaches and it takes 30 years of engineering experiences in top research labs and not just to watch a “youtube video” to get at this level and of course you have to think in Addition outside the box to create such architectures.
KR Dietmar

Trinity,

Yes, it is curious that people ask mostly about "visual" details but no one asked the crucial question that IMHO should make most of the difference - what is the type of algorithm for computing the values of the extra delayed samples? Yes, I know you will surely not answer , I understand it must naturally be a trade secret. But again IMHO, it must be one of the most important aspects in defining the sonic signature of the Trinity DAC, and explains why the BB DACs must be carefully selected.

 

[sonrock]

Sir, you can contact Keith Sir at Purite Audio, he's the trinity distributor in the uk. Hopefully he'll get the trinity dac soon and loan me to try at home.

Audiocrack, do you know of anyone who represents Trinity in the UK?

 

[Audiocrack]

Sir, you can contact Keith Sir at Purite Audio, he's the trinity distributor in the uk. Hopefully he'll get the trinity dac soon and loan me to try at home.

Please note that Purite no longer handles the Trinity brand.

 

[redsquare]

Finally! Able to load pictures!

In any event, yes, I am buying the Trinity but also keeping the CH for another home. I can't get the Trinity sound out of my head. Never heard anything this solid sounding before, especially on 16/44. We listened to internet radio on it and it was startling. Seriously, we listened to an 80's new wave station and it was better than any hirez demo I've ever experienced. This is what sold me, not some BS audiophile recording that most dacs need to sound good! You were all right; the Trinity is spectacular...

 

[sonrock]

I contacted Keith Sir awhile ago and he seemed to be continuous Trinity Dealer, I will double check with him and see how things going now. Because he had the preamp on demo but I was late to borrow it and compare to my koda k10. The k15 will be here next month and I'll report how the k15 sounds different from its sibling.

regarding trinity dac and transport, so in case Purite Audio is not the dealer anymore, so how could people like me in the UK can listen to the products? especially with home trial and compare directly of what we are using?

 

[Audiocrack]

I contacted Keith Sir awhile ago and he seemed to be continuous Trinity Dealer, I will double check with him and see how things going now. Because he had the preamp on demo but I was late to borrow it and compare to my koda k10. The k15 will be here next month and I'll report how the k15 sounds different from its sibling.

regarding trinity dac and transport, so in case Purite Audio is not the dealer anymore, so how could people like me in the UK can listen to the products? especially with home trial and compare directly of what we are using?

I am afraid at the moment it is not possible to listen to the Trinity dac and/or Trinity cd-drive/transport in the UK. Btw, Trinity is working on a new or updated website on which the Trinity distributors and dealers will be listed.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Too bad for us in the UK. Would love to have got a flavour of what you're all raving about, but not to be. No great shakes, I'm still wedded to conventional rbcd, but would like to experience the vibe.

 

[tunes]

a short comment on your Statement, on the first view it Looks like there is space for further improvement, but that is not true. The switched mode power supply is the best possible solution and of course I use parts of the market leader with synchron rectifier at the Input.
No 50Hz hum from the transformer, neither mechanical nor electrical. No external mu-metal shielded power unit necessary. I designed in the past sensor electronic for space applications and we always used SMPS since you have no wall connector in your space ship. At least not at that time.
Even if the used VCOCXO are very low senstive to any accearation (less than 1ppb per g) it is not good to have mechanical Vibration in the enclsoure.
At least it is my design philosophy.
The Output voltage of this modules are connected to two low drop voltage Regulator, after that I have a passive common mode filter, which reduces the the ripple further and that filter feeds another voltage Regulators. That means the voltage is 3 times clean from any artefacts of the SMPS before it goes to the main PCBs and on These PCBs there are the real lownoise voltage Regulators. Overall there are roughly 30 voltage Regulators inside the DAC. By the way I use the same technique in the TRINITY Phono and there I have to amplify Signal smaller than 1nV!!!!
Actually you can calulated the necessary so called "power supply rejection" which is part of the data Sheets.View attachment 13500
As you can see the PCM 1704 has a very good power supply rejection by itself and it gets a supply voltage with less than 15µV noise on it. This has to be devided by the worse case of 80dB(10.000) and you get the value visible at the DAC IC Output, which is in the range of 1,5nV. Means this remaining power supply noise is by a factor of 1000 to small to harm the Output Signal.
Back to the ribbon cable I assume that you donot know that These cable carry ballanced signals and that These ribbon cable are use as terminated Transmission lines with a bandwidth of 600MHz. Another Advantage is that the digital gorund bouncing stays on the Input board. If you would design eveything on one board you will significant degree the Performance and will get a lot of digital noise on your analog board, especially since I have no active low-pass filter in the Signal chain between DAC and XLR connector.
By the way These cable are not cheap ribbon cable, even if they are vey small each contact can handle 4A!!!.
You have always see the complete package and believe me I know what I do. Or as Mr. Royce alreday said "Small things make perfection, but perfection s not a small Thing"
KR dietmar

Interesting info Dietmar, especially your comment about the similar build of the phono, which i've been using for a few months now. It really is a superb product. Thanks for your participation here. Always helpful of manufacturers to chime in on these forums.
Chris

 

[PeterSt]

Dietmar - I would rather NOT give as much technical details, as I'm sure more than one competitor is studying the design now, to understand what you have done here.

Maybe only one. ;-)

But no. Like in my own case, there's too much secrecy and as Dietmar said "it is about the whole package". But that right away also creates the secrecy and this could be one :

and you get the value visible at the DAC IC Output, which is in the range of 1,5nV

So, this is about one of the elements (of that whole package) and it is easy to talk about such a thing and it looks impressive. However, I'd say that this was measured without any signal fed to the D/A IC's, that is, if you referred to IC's (chips) as such and not to "interlink connectors". Still, the "whole package" regarding this "nV" subject would be about the output. And whether the chips or interlinks, you (Dietmar) will be having a hard time showing this. Better say that mentioned 1.5nV was a typo and that it should have been 1.5uV (RMS !) At least that would be the best you can squeeze out in my little (practice) book but of course I don't know all.
It will be fair enough if you say that you don't have time for these stupidities but that will leave you with that typo (which of course it is not, so what is it for real ?).

All meaning : When too much secrecy is implied it will be read as erroneous, "not all thought over" or anything that makes that manufacturer psychological defend himself. I do the same.

More interesting in general could be that really no one is going to attempt the same because it already needs D/A chips which are virtually unavailable, so with some sense you're not gong to start new projects around that chip.

Someone like me could look with special interest (with the notice that most probably I am the only one) because of the most similar setup regarding the signal processing realm, but which of course I judge as "half cooked" only because I approach it differently. Dietmar will say the same about mine. Next, we really have to look at the target market and for Trinity this -through my eyes- is HiRes. For Phasure this is explicit Redbook and funnily enough either treats their target best.
Without working it out extensively, this too is about "secrecy" as such, and maybe I personally would not like that as a layman reader. I mean, only when *all* the pages have been carefully read (website) you get the clue that LIANOTEC may do wonders (as presented) but the only REAL key of that is perceived amplifier destruction (or speaker- if the amp has enough bandwidth). So, as a manufacturer on this side of the game I read it like that (which of course is correct judgement in my book). Sadly this is the ever and all discussion about NOS designs but a first burned tweeter and such because of exactly that I yet have to see (but maybe I don't read enough forums). At least I myself always bring it up as a possible downside which hasn't been proven anywhere that I can see (with next a pile of logic how cables and all filter so that no HF sh*t arrives anywhere to begin with, but alas).
What I also read (at reading in between all lines needed) is that playing Redbook is not special anywhere (but again amps won't burn) because just a normal filter is applied to that and of the most common type. And no, I don't say that the Trinity will sound bad because of that, but compared to the explicit Redbook guy and (mind you !) outside of power supply etc. "sure whole package" design - it can't. Unless we suddenly like ringing. Also notice that the filter makes the sound (just because I tell you) and while the major (selling) point of Trinity is that no digital filter is applied which is presented as "thus the best" (true in itself !) harder digging learns that such a filter just *is* applied if only Redbook is in order.

So you see ? this is how the only manufacturer who could be interested reads this and it is harmless (because not agreed).
What could bug me (as a common reader but with some knowlegde) is the way all is presented by its technical elements which you don't see or can't judge the merits of. A general outlay about 384Khz sampled signals is easy to miss (but looks sooo good) and plots about 24bit signals of 44.1 that clearly suggesting Redbook is another thing. That showing 16 bit signals will let rise THD (and noise) by something like 9dB is what I can see because I know, and the reason why it is shown like that is ... not fair ? There are a few more things, but these are the most important I think.
One notice : This manufacturer here (me) performs his act very explicitly the other way around and only comes up with pratice data (meaning : what the customer will encounter when playing his music). This for example means that I won't even present 24 bit plots anywhere and that all specs are for 16/44.1 material. So, Hires specs are not even mentioned, but they would look sooo much better. What I want to say is : Most probably I am not the normal guy here because much commercial it is not.

Although I presented some visions which are personal but which could be seen as a sort of bashing, I really hope I have been as neutral as can be. Just facts, though through my eyes. And so again (other thread) : Dietmar, correct me where I'm off please.
Kind regards,
Peter

 

[Elberoth]

Peter,

If I were a DAC manufacturer, I would refrain from posting about the competing products, especially if you want to discredit it (which is exactly what you are doing here, as a part of your well known self promotion).

If you do not like the fact that the DAC uses oversampling digital filter for redbook, just use one of the software players (like your own XXHiEnd) who can perform upsampling and feed it with 176 or 192kHz signals. Afterall, this is exactly how you have to use your DAC.

Including the oversampling digital filter for lower sampling rates was a very smart design choice. It allows the DAC to be used with SPDIF signals and variety of software players - also those which do not upsample. So the end user can choose, which path to follow - a choice that the owner of your DAC doesn't have.

I have looked very closely at your DAC, and have absolutely no doubt, that the Trinity is a superior design in every single aspect (from chipset grade used, number of DACs used, DACs arrangement, clocking to build quality).

Let's leave this at that and good luck with your project.

 

[PeterSt]

Hi Adam,

With a clear Thank You for your warnings, you don't realize that it is exactly you who envited me to this Trinity thread(s) (see post 157).

I have looked very closely at your DAC, and have absolutely no doubt, that the Trinity is a superior design in every signle aspect (from chipset grade used, number of DACs used, DACs arrangement, clocking to build quality). Let's leave this at that and good luck with your project.

That, and all not correct. Sorry ...
So just because of that I think I am entitled for some counter post, which btw wasn't put up yet (might you think that).

On another matter I just came back because I forgot something :

So I "claim" that LIANOTEC is there for its good reason to go beyond amplifier's bandwidth. Nothing wrong with that. But what I had in mind to add to it I forgot and now it seems just shouting. So :

Taking Redbook as a base, the filter for that is followed again by LIANOTEC and that suggests to make it all better again.
a. The filter itself takes out the HF already;
b. No THD figures are going to improve because of again applying LIANOTEC (this can be read as SQ won't improve).

If you combine the both, you can see that LIANOTEC is only there for superb Hires representation and that for moving the HF to beyond amp bandwidth in only that case.

Adam, please, I am only explaining what the manaul/website really tells;
Enough doubts have been expressed throughout this thread (and the other one), and all I do is saying that nothing is wrong with Trinity's approach. Has anyone else been doing this ?
Was anyone else capable ? maybe, but they shut up.

If you do not like the fact that the DAC uses oversampling digital filter for redbook, just use one of the software players (like your own XXHiEnd) who can perform upsampling and feed it with 176 or 192kHz signals.

Correct. And I suppose you wanted me to say this out of my own self ? and to next say that I try to sell my software or something ?

Regards,
Peter

 

[VT Skier]

I have to agree with Adam that any manufacturer commenting disparagingly about the products of another is poor form, at best. I also wonder why so many people in this hobby feel the need to comment negatively about a product most of them have never even seen, much less heard.

I think it's great that Adam and Audiocrack have taken the time to describe what they both feel is an excellent new product, maybe even a clear step forward in the reproduction of digital music. These are the kind of posts that make me excited about hearing new products at the next audio show I attend. I may not agree with their conclusions after hearing it, but I'm sure I'll enjoy the experience.

And yes, Peter, I feel you are trying to sell something with your comments. Your products. By writing that a product you don't sell is "bad" you are implying, or maybe hoping that we infer, that your product is "good" or "better". I would find it far more interesting if you wrote about your own products: what makes them different, why you made the choices you did, etc. Your choices are, if nothing else, greatly constrained by your product's price point, certainly as compared to the Trinity, and that topic alone could be interesting.

 

[microstrip]

I have to agree with Adam that any manufacturer commenting disparagingly about the products of another is poor form, at best. I also wonder why so many people in this hobby feel the need to comment negatively about a product most of them have never even seen, much less heard.

I think it's great that Adam and Audiocrack have taken the time to describe what they both feel is an excellent new product, maybe even a clear step forward in the reproduction of digital music. These are the kind of posts that make me excited about hearing new products at the next audio show I attend. I may not agree with their conclusions after hearing it, but I'm sure I'll enjoy the experience.

And yes, Peter, I feel you are trying to sell something with your comments. Your products. By writing that a product you don't sell is "bad" you are implying, or maybe hoping that we infer, that your product is "good" or "better". I would find it far more interesting if you wrote about your own products: what makes them different, why you made the choices you did, etc. Your choices are, if nothing else, greatly constrained by your product's price point, certainly as compared to the Trinity, and that topic alone could be interesting.

I agree with you that it is great to read about opinions from Adam and Audiocrak, members we know well and appreciate, but I am also interested in technical debates with the participation of the manufacturers - I am learning about the Trinity from Peter posts. Surely a manufacturer will have a bias towards his products, but as long as they are respectful and polite, technical arguments are just technical arguments. One of the points that makes the difference in WBF is just the experts contribution. Dieter will surely participate and present his technical opinion. If something goes wrong, I think we can trust in our moderators to keep the thread within the WBF TOS. Just MHO.

 

[PeterSt]

By writing that a product you don't sell is "bad" you are implying, or maybe hoping that we infer, that your product is "good" or "better".

Arrggghh )
I did not tell that the produc is bad. Did I ? Please quote me, but be careful not to quote the other way around. And hopefully it is not my English which makes you think so. I mean, I myself am sure I told the other way around. Please read back.
What I did tell about though is that the website + manual tell things differently than they really are to me. And since I know a few things too, these are - as I tried to tell - facts. This included for example telling about 1.5nV figures which - for me - can not exist. But if they can after all I will be happy to apologise as loud as I can.

And I tell you again : The reason why I am here in the first place (and it is the only reason in fact) is that someone who clearly doesn't know is downing my own product on behalf of the one which is the subject here. And THAT is allowed you'd say ? Maybe I don't even care, because I say it is not and now suddenly it is about me. Call that defense mode.

I would find it far more interesting if you wrote about your own products: what makes them different, why you made the choices you did, etc. Your choices are, if nothing else, greatly constrained by your product's price point, certainly as compared to the Trinity, and that topic alone could be interesting.

Yes, could be nice. But to you too I like to say Thank You (which is genuine and not cynical) but we must realize that such a question is an invitation to do that right in this thread and as how general forum rules are it will be allowed now (you just aksed). Still I won't do that because this is not how I ever will be. Sounds strange ? heck, you don't know how many times I commented similar as you in a thread about a product where people take over with another. Not their own product, but just another. So I hate that and thus I will never do that.
Not that is is a real subject (for me it at least isn't) but just starting a thread by myself about my own product(s) is also not the best (and not allowed anyway).

Please realize how difficult a "situation" can be when someone indeed downs my own product and all I need to do is make a post which debunks that. So I did that, but it is still not up. Why ? because I am not the kind of guy who shouts around without fundation and I feel I can't tell things which are not true and now suddenly will work the other way around because of that (I would be bashing that product). Example : My question in that other "negative" thread was about where I read about the filtering because I'm sure I did but couldn't find it. So, this is so hard to find, that without notice I would make a 100 mistakes and e.g. write that Redbook from the Trinity must totally suck. This goes as far as Dietmar having bailed out of this thread so he won't be able to defend or correct (his own choice but alas) and THAT would be wrong. And so I really have to be sure what I'm talking about. That in the mean time that other thread emerges is a coincidence where Dietmar is back with now my choice to post in there for questions, BUT, this is a destructive thread and it would put me on the wrong side (of what I intend). Then suddenly Dietmar is back in here but the next thing what happens is that Adam again easily tells that no Phasure NOS1 is going to be better because ...
At least I'll now happily grab the chance per your text above to put up that post which will only be about, say, the decency of my product and which will never be about an undecent Trinity (with some choices to make for readers). Should be tomorrow.
And might you guys think that any product costing 10 times less "thus" is not ... etc. ... and reason further from there then maybe you make a few mistakes. I said maybe.

Do notice that behind the scenes more things are going on and if you read that other thread you have a hint there. But do know that at least two people in this thread know about my offer to compare the two DACs with the most explicit remark that it is out of the question that I even *want* to sell something, but that so far this has been refused. Maybe self protection or otherwise something *is* going on and quite some posts in this thread suggest it. It would be nice if one of those two people confirm this "offer" which even wasn't my own idea.

Lastly, if the moderators in here feel that I am all on the wrong track with this, they will contact me or act as needed otherwise.
I hope all is fine ...
Peter

 

[Audiocrack]

Arrggghh )
Do notice that behind the scenes more things are going on and if you read that other thread you have a hint there. But do know that at least two people in this thread know about my offer to compare the two DACs with the most explicit remark that it is out of the question that I even *want* to sell something, but that so far this has been refused. Maybe self protection or otherwise something *is* going on and quite some posts in this thread suggest it. It would be nice if one of those two people confirm this "offer" which even wasn't my own idea.

I do not like suggestive responses or insinuations as quoted. Please make clear what you are referring to because I (and probably a number of other forum members) have no idea what you are talking about. So what is exactly going on according to you?
As regards your other remark in this quote: the reason that I am not going to visit you with my Trinity dac has nothing to do with any "self protection", whatever this phrase might imply in this context. First of all, why should I compare a dac that I just bought and am extremely happy with with another dac? This does not make any sense from my perspective. Secondly, you are a dac manufacturer. Don't you think it would be quite inappropriate to bring a product of a honest person like Dietmar who is trying to establish a hifi brand to a potential competitor? Lastly there are reasons I cannot and therefore will not elaborate on a forum like this. I would appreciate a little more respect towards other dac manufacturers.