Varese/Gryphon/XVX impressions

Last night I had the opportunity to spend some time with my friend who recently upgraded from Vivaldi Apex stack to Varese. I posted about my prior experiences before and the room/ equipment were unchanged. The Varese feeds a Gryphon Commander which then supplies mono Gryphon Apex amps and then the XVX. The dual subsonics are powered by mono Gryphon Mephistos. Cabling is Transparent Magnum Opus. Isolation is all top HRS.
The room is 22x33 and treated with RPG Modex plate and bad panels. Ceiling uses diffusive Vicoustic panels. The grills are a full 9 feet off the front wall. Set up was originally done by Peter but was subsequently greatly improved over several months by Todd and Gale from the Sound Environment.
David the CEO of DCS and Emron DCS sales accompied us on our listening session. They gave good insight into the project but largely stayed out of the way so that we could draw our own conclusions. DCS spent 8 years and over 10 million pounds on this project. The engineers were given free rein to build the best they could without financial restraint. This created a lot of anxiety for leadership as they didn’t know what they would get or when they would get it. It did end up yielding Lina and Apex to help offset the investments. It is absolutely their intention to trickle this technology down. I directly asked him about that and he said we can and we will. My pure guess reading the tea leaves is less than a year but who knows.
Listening: We listened for nearly 5 hours. Everyone was amazed including the DCS crew. This room is dialed in like no other. Even the rake angle of the subs were adjusted to 84 degrees to match the mains baffles. The first thing anyone said was that these (XVX) dont sound like a speaker brand at all. There was no “Wilson sound” hindering the experience. We listened to all kinds of music. Classical, acoustic jazz, female and male vocalists, rock pop, live, studio. I have a partial list if someone is interested. It’s not a small improvement over Vivaldi. It’s big. Like this is better (knives out) than his Airforce one. There is no Halo there is no ring. It’s dead quiet. 5+ db quieter than Vivaldi. The sound is absolutely natural. I pressed him and he says they don’t apply any software based soundshaping technologies to make it sound more pleasant and less digital. The differences are now mono differential DACs improved power supplies and now Rockport like case work. Billet aluminum with a constrained layer dampening between then. It’s heavy and it doesn’t resonate like before.
Conclusion: this isn’t a review and this is just my opinion. The differential ring DAC and new case work will be the foundation of future DCS products. They are ok with open architecture (using someone else’s streamer) but will likely also make their own to pair with future projects. I have no way to judge if the steep price is worth it to any given individual but if you have the money and listen to a lot of digital it will transform your experience. No unbiased listener could call this unmusical.It is pure music. This is a rare case where it actually is meaningfully better.
Note: this is no slight to Wadax or others. It’s not a comparison. I’m relaying my impressions of a great evening. I don’t usually care for Wilson speakers but this was the best reproduction I have heard in my 65 years. The first picture shows right to left David, Emron and Todd

 

I have a different opinion. I have owned a TechDas AF1 plus with a Graham Phantoma at a period I also owned an EMT 927/SME 3012R. IMO the TechDas was the best turntable I owned, much closer to the performance of the Studer A80 playing tapes than the EMT. I got it from a friend who owned also a Continuum Caliburn and I listened to both side by side several times in comparison, including with the SAT turntable. IMO , all ranked very high in quality. There are so large differences in sound quality between top vinyl that choice is mainly a question of listener preference, not which is the "best". But the TechDas /Graham was extremely resolving and neutral - easily the best vinyl system I owned.

I have now listened several times in separate sessions to the dCS Varese with D'Agostino's Relentless and XVX. When playing top digital recordings, IMO it is at a different level from all else I have listened in stereo - an immediate absence of artifacts that can disorienting - where are they gone?

'poof',

absence of artifacts verses realism of vinyl....3 years ago. not every tt set-up relates the realism of better vinyl pressings equally. but the better tt's all do a pretty good job.

 

'poof',

absence of artifacts verses realism of vinyl....3 years ago. not every tt set-up relates the realism of vinyl equally. but the better one's all do a pretty good job.

I am used to this line of preference - considering our favorite artifacts as realism, because they were masterly recorded, we got used to them and enjoy them.

We have different perspectives on stereo reproduction since long, no problem. BTW, I have not changed my opinion because of the dCS Varese - in general I have preferred digital format to vinyl for a long time - surely some particular recordings can reverse it. I am happy because I find the dCS Varese a significant step in sound quality that I appreciate, not because of feeding vendettas.

 

I am used to this line of preference - considering our favorite artifacts as realism, because they were masterly recorded, we got used to them and enjoy them.

they could be masterly recorded because the format is more capable and complete. which is as true now as it was then. OTOH it's not as clean as the best digital. nor does it need to be. it's an experiential thing.

over time there have been changes to the typical. artists are different, recording processes are different, and the knowledge base is reduced. but the tools are better now, and the results can be as good or better when the motivation is sufficient. but there is not the commercial momentum today we had 40-70 years ago for pure analog. glad i have 8k-10k pre-80's vinyl on my shelves.

We have different perspectives on stereo reproduction since long, no problem. BTW, I have not changed my opinion because of the dCS Varese - in general I have preferred digital format to vinyl for a long time - surely some particular recordings can reverse it.

yes; nothing new about that.

I am happy because I find the dCS Varese a significant step in sound quality that I appreciate, not because of feeding vendettas.

i am honestly happy that we both have found digital we love. we don't need to agree on the vinyl part.

 

in general I have preferred digital format to vinyl for a long time - surely some particular recordings can reverse it.

That we figured for a long time based on your posts

 

Thank you for sharing your experience and some photos @JiminGa
Your friend has a beautiful room and a system.

 

they could be masterly recorded because the format is more capable and complete. which is as true now as it was then. OTOH it's not as clean as the best digital. nor does it need to be. it's an experiential thing

Vinyl handles less information than digital. Vinyl is less transparent than digital. How can it be more "complete" (BTW, an ambiguous and meaningless subjective general qualifier) ? I suggest you read from known recording engineers (old and new generation) how they handled the limitations of it with fabulous recording tricks to make it enjoyable.
BTW, the keyword is "information".

over time there have been changes to the typical. artists are different, recording processes are different, and the knowledge base is reduced. but the tools are better now, and the results can be as good or better when the motivation is sufficient. but there is not the commercial momentum today we had 40-70 years ago for pure analog. glad i have 8k-10k pre-80's vinyl on my shelves.

I feel happy that you still live in the commercial momentum of 40-70 years ago and specially that you enjoy what you have - it is the objective of the hobby. But it is not what is being addressed.

yes; nothing new about that.

i am honestly happy that we both have found digital we love. we don't need to agree on the vinyl part.

We just disagree on your need to rank and debate formats according to your perception of "realism" in your system as being "reality". And surely on many objective and technical facts.

 

We just disagree

very true.

 

they could be masterly recorded because the format is more capable and complete. which is as true now as it was then. OTOH it's not as clean as the best digital. nor does it need to be. it's an experiential thing.

May I ask what you mean with "complete"?

 

May I ask what you mean with "complete"?

to be fair to this thread and subject matter, let's not take this any further here. the OP brought up vinyl, so it was not me who started it.

here is a WBF search for vinyl is more complete'. 7 pages of posts.......of which quite a few of them are mine (especially back a ways) or responses to my posts and i get into it but just not here. or open a thread about it and i will follow up.

 

May I ask what you mean with "complete"?

Sounding one whole instead of bits of pieces loosely sewn together

 

Last night I had the opportunity to spend some time with my friend who recently upgraded from Vivaldi Apex stack to Varese. I posted about my prior experiences before and the room/ equipment were unchanged. The Varese feeds a Gryphon Commander which then supplies mono Gryphon Apex amps and then the XVX. The dual subsonics are powered by mono Gryphon Mephistos. Cabling is Transparent Magnum Opus. Isolation is all top HRS.
The room is 22x33 and treated with RPG Modex plate and bad panels. Ceiling uses diffusive Vicoustic panels. The grills are a full 9 feet off the front wall. Set up was originally done by Peter but was subsequently greatly improved over several months by Todd and Gale from the Sound Environment.
David the CEO of DCS and Emron DCS sales accompied us on our listening session. They gave good insight into the project but largely stayed out of the way so that we could draw our own conclusions. DCS spent 8 years and over 10 million pounds on this project. The engineers were given free rein to build the best they could without financial restraint. This created a lot of anxiety for leadership as they didn’t know what they would get or when they would get it. It did end up yielding Lina and Apex to help offset the investments. It is absolutely their intention to trickle this technology down. I directly asked him about that and he said we can and we will. My pure guess reading the tea leaves is less than a year but who knows.
Listening: We listened for nearly 5 hours. Everyone was amazed including the DCS crew. This room is dialed in like no other. Even the rake angle of the subs were adjusted to 84 degrees to match the mains baffles. The first thing anyone said was that these (XVX) dont sound like a speaker brand at all. There was no “Wilson sound” hindering the experience. We listened to all kinds of music. Classical, acoustic jazz, female and male vocalists, rock pop, live, studio. I have a partial list if someone is interested. It’s not a small improvement over Vivaldi. It’s big. Like this is better (knives out) than his Airforce one. There is no Halo there is no ring. It’s dead quiet. 5+ db quieter than Vivaldi. The sound is absolutely natural. I pressed him and he says they don’t apply any software based soundshaping technologies to make it sound more pleasant and less digital. The differences are now mono differential DACs improved power supplies and now Rockport like case work. Billet aluminum with a constrained layer dampening between then. It’s heavy and it doesn’t resonate like before.
Conclusion: this isn’t a review and this is just my opinion. The differential ring DAC and new case work will be the foundation of future DCS products. They are ok with open architecture (using someone else’s streamer) but will likely also make their own to pair with future projects. I have no way to judge if the steep price is worth it to any given individual but if you have the money and listen to a lot of digital it will transform your experience. No unbiased listener could call this unmusical.It is pure music. This is a rare case where it actually is meaningfully better.
Note: this is no slight to Wadax or others. It’s not a comparison. I’m relaying my impressions of a great evening. I don’t usually care for Wilson speakers but this was the best reproduction I have heard in my 65 years. The first picture shows right to left David, Emron and Todd

really serious room and set up.