The Volkswagen debacle

[rockitman]

And only the most uninformed and clueless imbecile would claim the standards are anything but a win win for everybody. The auto industry had UNPRECEDENTED input into the CAFE standards.

Very liberal of you....lol
The world is on fire because of clueless liberals...how do you like that before the liberal sensors step in a delete my post. You guys make a great echo chamber. cheers !

 

[Andre Marc]

The auto industry has a history of whining about how hard and costly it is to implement anything. I remember their whining in the 60s over having to add seat belts, and the imbeciles who said it was better to be thrown clear in a wreck.

Yes...and the history of this lazy, pathetic, and unprogressive mind set is on the record. Don't get me started!

 

[Andre Marc]

Very liberal of you....lol
The world is on fire because of clueless liberals...how do you like that before the liberal sensors step in a delete my post. You guys make a great echo chamber. cheers !

Tsk Tsk Politics. Read the terms of service.

 

[DaveyF]

Very liberal of you....lol
The world is on fire because of clueless liberals...how do you like that before the liberal sensors step in a delete my post. You guys make a great echo chamber. cheers !

There are occasions when liberalism has nothing to do with the topic, instead logic rules the discussion and needs to be paramount. In fact, i believe that conservatism vs. liberalism rarely has anything to do with the discussions on this forum...unless those who are overly quixotic and extremist have their way! IMHO.

 

[amirm]

The thread is getting pretty political guys. If you want it to stay open, please be careful about that and importantly, be nice to each other.

FYI my son told me his car is 2010 so unfortunately will fall into whatever this recall with be .

 

[DaveyF]

Amir, what concerns do you and your son have with your VW at this time? Are you expecting, like the rest of us ( well owners of these cars, which I am not, but my brother is) to be handed a very insufficient compensation from a 'class action' suit that will leave the class action lawyers with many millions of $$, and the truly injured parties with a pittance..at best.
Or, are you hopeful that an equitable solution can be worked out? If so, what do you feel such a solution would entail?

 

[Andre Marc]

The thread is getting pretty political guys. If you want it to stay open, please be careful about that and importantly, be nice to each other.

FYI my son told me his car is 2010 so unfortunately will fall into whatever this recall with be .

One poster crossed the line into political territory. Let's make the record clear.

 

[Andre Marc]

Amir, what concerns do you and your son have with your VW at this time? Are you expecting, like the rest of us ( well owners of these cars, which I am not, but my brother is) to be handed a very insufficient compensation from a 'class action' suit that will leave the class action lawyers with many millions of $$, and the truly injured parties with a pittance..at best.
Or, are you hopeful that an equitable solution can be worked out? If so, what do you feel such a solution would entail?

Very good questions.

 

[Don Hills]

...

fuel cell, fuel cell, fuel cell.

Where's the fuel for the fuel cells going to come from?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Where's the fuel for the fuel cells going to come from?

the advantages of fuel cell are multiple ways to produce, short refueling times, small form factor, lightweight fuel, and zero emissions. electric has zero emissions and 'somewhat' in place infrastructure; but long charging times, heavy batteries, and high cost. driving away from main highways with electrics is not advised as the charging infrastructure is not there.

fueling infrastructure is the biggest thing to overcome with fuel cell. the technology is already here.

some info....

from Honda...

http://automobiles.honda.com/honda-fcv/

from Toyota about the fuel....

https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/fuel.html?srchid=sem|google|FCV|Model_FCV|Sitelinks||

hydrogen fuel can be produced in many different ways. right now natural gas/methane is how it's done but fossil fuels are not required.

why do you suppose Honda and Toyota have their focus here and not electric?

I'm sure everyone else knows better.......

Honda has been leasing fuel cell cars in Southern California for 8 years.

for electrics to become real world some sort of huge technological breakthrough will be necessary to make charging times short and batteries many multiples more efficient and not so costly.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

the real question is what technology could be workable in terms of building 5 to 10 million a year + at costs that the middle class could afford and sustain the manufacturing side for profit?

building 30,000 to 40,000 electric cars worldwide annually to satisfy politicians is a negative as it delays real progress on where we need to go.

 

[DaveyF]

Your fuel cell links were very interesting and educational. Thanks for posting those, Mike.
I do think that the answer lies with the utilization of both technologies, fuel cell and electric. It would seem that the fuel cell is powering an electric motor, which is going to give the benefits of an electric drive mechanism. I am unsure if the fuel cell technology can supply enough juice to power a highly powerful motor, or motors...like in the Tesla. Perhaps others could chime in here.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Bottom line then seems to be here whatever the politicians see as the future for a market that is going to be it , most of them dont have much technical background , a lot of of them are paid lobbyists (nasty remark i m sorry ) the technology which shoeves the most under the table is gonna make it

 

[Mike Lavigne]

further fuel cell info on longer range from today....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ydrogen-car-with-longer-range-to-rival-toyota

 

[Don Hills]

Thanks for the links, Mike. Only the Mirai one goes into fuel production, though. And it doesn't go into any detail about the efficiencies of the different processes - all hydrogen production requires energy input, and the amount of energy input versus the amount of work done where the rubber meets the road has to be compared with, for example, the same ratio for battery-electric. That's the sort of detail I was looking for. I guess I'll do my own homework.

Personally, I'd rather see the effort put into better batteries, as this will benefit all aspects of energy use, not just transport. I'll grant that fuel cells also have applicability beyond transport, but not as widely as batteries - there are disadvantages to a fuel cell powered cellphone, for example.

 

[DaveC]

Personally, I'd rather see the effort put into better batteries, as this will benefit all aspects of energy use, not just transport. I'll grant that fuel cells also have applicability beyond transport, but not as widely as batteries - there are disadvantages to a fuel cell powered cellphone, for example.

I went to CU Boulder, one of my profs was a leading fuel-cell researcher. It seems they are on the verge of advancing this technology, but talk to any research scientist and they are always on the verge of something

I do agree battery technology is very useful, and what I'd like to see make a quantum leap. It is pretty amazing how much better Li batteries are vs the old tech but there's still a lot to be desired of course. Teslas can charge to 80% in 20 min if they are at a charging station, that's not bad... Large scale energy storage will also help level the output of intermittent sources of power like solar and wind. Right now, if you can pump water uphill and then use it to power turbines on the way back down or have the right geologic formation where you can pressure it with air you can get well over 90% back but that's not a common situation.

Or a Mr Fusion powered Delorean from Back to the Future, that would be nice...

 

[Ronm1]

^^^^ How about an Oscillation Overthruster

 

[amirm]

Amir, what concerns do you and your son have with your VW at this time? Are you expecting, like the rest of us ( well owners of these cars, which I am not, but my brother is) to be handed a very insufficient compensation from a 'class action' suit that will leave the class action lawyers with many millions of $$, and the truly injured parties with a pittance..at best.
Or, are you hopeful that an equitable solution can be worked out? If so, what do you feel such a solution would entail?

I think they are hard at work figuring out how to boost the performance of the engine while running in compliant mode. Assuming they can't get blood out of stone, I think everyone will get a firmware update for the ECU and wind up with negative consequences. There will then be class action suits in every state and by every state attorney who is running for office, and they would then settle those in a few years for hundreds of millions of dollars and as you say, the lawyers will keep the money. And the owners will be given a one year extended warranty or $50 repair voucher or some such thing. Meanwhile depreciation will set in big time on these cars and selling them will become hard.

What would be the more pro-consumer solution? Offer to buy off the cars toward purchase a new car at very attractive trade in value. Offer white glove service by bringing the car to people's homes and taking the old away. It would keep the customer with them and make them happy with a new car. Offer 0% interest so that people can afford to finance the differential.

Another alternative is to offer $2000 cash to make up for the lost value and performance. This would make it hard to find people who still want to joint he class action and sue them because they would have to think they can make more than this.

 

[BlueFox]

^^^^ How about an Oscillation Overthruster

Good idea, Buckeroo.

 

[DaveyF]

I think they are hard at work figuring out how to boost the performance of the engine while running in compliant mode. Assuming they can't get blood out of stone, I think everyone will get a firmware update for the ECU and wind up with negative consequences. There will then be class action suits in every state and by every state attorney who is running for office, and they would then settle those in a few years for hundreds of millions of dollars and as you say, the lawyers will keep the money. And the owners will be given a one year extended warranty or $50 repair voucher or some such thing. Meanwhile depreciation will set in big time on these cars and selling them will become hard.

What would be the more pro-consumer solution? Offer to buy off the cars toward purchase a new car at very attractive trade in value. Offer white glove service by bringing the car to people's homes and taking the old away. It would keep the customer with them and make them happy with a new car. Offer 0% interest so that people can afford to finance the differential.

Another alternative is to offer $2000 cash to make up for the lost value and performance. This would make it hard to find people who still want to joint he class action and sue them because they would have to think they can make more than this.

All great ideas. The only scenario I suspect that will see fruition is the extended warranty and the $50 voucher ( if that). One of the problems, IMHO, when a company gets as big as VW, is that they really do NOT have to concern themselves with their reputation ( contrary to the claims from Germany right now). They are strong enough financially to whether a storm of bad publicity and they know that the public has a short memory. A few well placed pricey ads in the future and all will be forgotten.
In some ways, I believe that there is even a possibility that all of the bad publicity will even drive more sales to them...not perhaps in the short term, but almost certainly long term.
Now, if we simply closed them down permanently, that would make a different impression for those who might consider the same tact. Oh, I forgot, they are too big to suffer any real consequence!!