The Volkswagen debacle

[DaveyF]

My brother is fuming mad these days. As an owner of a '14 Jetta TDI wagon, he is mad as all get out with VW. Some (most?) of you know that VW is in a world of hurt right now. Justifiably so, because they decided to cheat on the emission controls of their diesel cars. The cheat, which in some ways was pretty smart...was to install software that recognized when the car needed to be smogged and ran the car differently to accomplish this. As soon as the car passed, the software turned off and the car ran great, BUT polluted like crazy!

An interesting thing is that now we have millions of cars on the road from this manufacturer, that were and are, essentially violating the emission laws of the various countries they are sold in. I drove this car tonight to see its driving characteristics...it drove very well - very like a far more powerful gas engine. The car currently can do 35-40 mpg in city! Once the recall happens, it will be interesting to see if the drivability of the vehicle suffers ( and the fuel economy as well)...as my brother and many others fear it will.

Anyone on the forum own one of these vehicles, thoughts on the potential fix....


Do we also think that there are other manufacturer's who are/have done the same thing?

Interesting times in the automotive biz....what's to come next?

 

[NorthStar]

I'd like to see more electric non-polluting cars on all our highways. ...Just a quick and honest opinion like that. :b

 

[blutto]

....find below an interesting op-ed found in the business section of Canada's paper of record....the message in its distilled form is that this is just another example of how things generally work these days...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...snt-a-scandal-its-a-syndrome/article26479332/

....and then there is this from a libertarian site which proclaims its the dastardly gubbermint's fault...

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/09/eric-peters/the-vw-scandal/

...I guess that we should be thankful that while this is a mess ( it has been estimated that the extra pollution produced just in the US is equivalent to all the pollution produced by British power plants ) it was not a similar type of cockup by a drug company that ends up killing thousands of people....

Cheers

 

[jfrech]

I'd like to see more electric non-polluting cars on all our highways. ...Just a quick and honest opinion like that. :b

Not trying to inflame. But several sources I've read say while the electric car obviously doesn't pollute the air if your electricity is coming from oil or a coal fired plant actual emmissions from your driving may actually be more than a reasonably clean gas car. I don't have the source to post. And again, not trying to start a inflammatory theme in this thread...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

My brother is fuming mad these days. As an owner of a '14 Jetta TDI wagon, he is mad as all get out with VW. Some (most?) of you know that VW is in a world of hurt right now. Justifiably so, because they decided to cheat on the emission controls of their diesel cars. The cheat, which in some ways was pretty smart...was to install software that recognized when the car needed to be smogged and ran the car differently to accomplish this. As soon as the car passed, the software turned off and the car ran great, BUT polluted like crazy!

An interesting thing is that now we have millions of cars on the road from this manufacturer, that were and are, essentially violating the emission laws of the various countries they are sold in. I drove this car tonight to see its driving characteristics...it drove very well - very like a far more powerful gas engine. The car currently can do 35-40 mpg in city! Once the recall happens, it will be interesting to see if the drivability of the vehicle suffers ( and the fuel economy as well)...as my brother and many others fear it will.

Anyone on the forum own one of these vehicles, thoughts on the potential fix....


Do we also think that there are other manufacturer's who are/have done the same thing?

Interesting times in the automotive biz....what's to come next?

I'm a GM at a Honda dealership, been there for 35 years.

back in 2009 Honda was 6 months away from making a diesel Accord for the US market; and they suddenly pulled the plug on it. as dealers who were getting our butts kicked by Prius we wanted the diesel, but Honda just said no.

why? because the emissions solution was too expensive. here is a related article from 2009.....

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a4567/4330313/

>>>>>>Unlike hybrids, which have a green reputation in this country, modern diesels must still overcome the reputation here of those soot-belching, unreliable oil-burners of the past. Additionally, since diesel doesn't evaporate like gasoline, the pumps are dirtier--no matter how clean those diesel engines are. And then there's another challenge for diesels--stricter U.S. emission regulations. The 50-state light-duty vehicle limit for emissions of nitrogen oxides is 0.07 grams per mile. In Western Europe, the limit is 0.29. Reducing NOx to nitrogen and oxygen is much harder with a diesel engine because the exhaust is typically cooler and contains less oxygen compared to a gas engine. To meet U.S. regulations, diesel engines are required to use complicated--and expensive--high-pressure fuel injection and after-treatment systems that in some cases inject an aqueous urea solution to handle the NOx. The added expense of course means an even longer payback period for the consumer.<<<<<<

that is why you only see more expensive diesels in the USA.......no one besides VW could afford the emissions systems at the lower price points. turns out VW could not afford them either.

now they will likely pay $15-30 Billion dollars at minimum, likely jail time for some, and huge loss of consumer confidence for their greed/fraud/vanity/stupidity/audacity.

 

[asiufy]

What I don't get is, why is it that, in Europe, diesel cars are common? Is it because they're generally smaller (and thus don't require much HP)?
I still remember I rented a medium size (small by US standards) Fiat, diesel, and the thing went on forever, with one tank. And drove just like a gasoline-powered car...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

What I don't get is, why is it that, in Europe, diesel cars are common? Is it because they're generally smaller (and thus don't require much HP)?
I still remember I rented a medium size (small by US standards) Fiat, diesel, and the thing went on forever, with one tank. And drove just like a gasoline-powered car...

emissions laws in Europe are much less stringent for diesel than the USA. and they were not strictly enforced. so a few manufacturers did not fully comply. now recently the emission laws in for diesel in Europe come closer to those in the USA and are more closely regulated.

you have to appreciate that in Europe many manufacturers are partially owned and run by the governments and unions......so the whole concept of government watchdog is lacking. in the USA it's almost a religion.

 

[amirm]

What I don't get is, why is it that, in Europe, diesel cars are common? Is it because they're generally smaller (and thus don't require much HP)?
I still remember I rented a medium size (small by US standards) Fiat, diesel, and the thing went on forever, with one tank. And drove just like a gasoline-powered car...

As I understand it, there is tax subsidy because of their better gas mileage. As is typical in Europe, senior managers and above get a car allowance. So I would ask my team there what they would buy and they all said Diesel for this reason.

Unlike US, the impression of Diesel is also very positive. I had a limo driver I would use in UK and he would swear to never buy anything other than a Diesel Mercedes.

 

[amirm]

On the original topic, it is shameful indeed. They took a lesson from computer industry. Many years ago graphics card companies put in a hook in the driver that talks to their hardware to "sniff" what program is calling them. If it was a benchmark program, they would pretend to draw what was asked of them but in reality did nothing. This sharply increased their benchmark numbers but of course was not representative of any real life situation. A few years ago Samsung was caught with a simple file that had a list of the benchmarks on their tablet that they were cheating on. So benchmark vendors all had to do a lot of work to make this detection harder.

A few years ago VW set the target to become the highest volume car manufacturer in the world. That kind of pressure I am sure ultimately translated to the team thinking this kind of action was OK. So even if direct orders were not given from the top, the senior management had a responsibility for this and requirement to know enough about car design to seek out cheap solutions to hard problems.

My son has an older TDI passat. He loves it and gets superb gas mileage. I am unsure if it will be part of the recall or not. He bought it before VW announced their intention to achieve #1 status. The next version was cheaper designed.

All of this said, they make wonderful cars. All three of my sons have VW and their handling and feel is BMW like but at far cheaper price. Yet the touch and feel remains very nice. It put a smile on my face when I test drove them on their behalf.

 

[DaveC]

On the original topic, it is shameful indeed. They took a lesson from computer industry. Many years ago graphics card companies put in a hook in the driver that talks to their hardware to "sniff" what program is calling them. If it was a benchmark program, they would pretend to draw what was asked of them but in reality did nothing. This sharply increased their benchmark numbers but of course was not representative of any real life situation. A few years ago Samsung was caught with a simple file that had a list of the benchmarks on their tablet that they were cheating on. So benchmark vendors all had to do a lot of work to make this detection harder.

A few years ago VW set the target to become the highest volume car manufacturer in the world. That kind of pressure I am sure ultimately translated to the team thinking this kind of action was OK. So even if direct orders were not given from the top, the senior management had a responsibility for this and requirement to know enough about car design to seek out cheap solutions to hard problems.

My son has an older TDI passat. He loves it and gets superb gas mileage. I am unsure if it will be part of the recall or not. He bought it before VW announced their intention to achieve #1 status. The next version was cheaper designed.

All of this said, they make wonderful cars. All three of my sons have VW and their handling and feel is BMW like but at far cheaper price. Yet the touch and feel remains very nice. It put a smile on my face when I test drove them on their behalf.

I think it's 2009 and later cars but I'm not sure we have all the answers yet...

If I remember right VW did not offer diesels for a year or two while "figuring out" a solution to meet pollution requirements, then in '09 a new line of VW TDIs came out.

I actually recommended the Jetta TDI to my parents, luckily they came home with a Jetta Hybrid instead... the Hybrid is actually a really nice car, my parents are getting 40+ mpg out of it, sometimes 50 mpg.

Oh also... VW TDI owners can expect an increase in fuel consumption coupled with a decrease in power for a "fix". I'm so glad I don't own one...

 

[Ron Resnick]

Not trying to inflame. But several sources I've read say while the electric car obviously doesn't pollute the air if your electricity is coming from oil or a coal fired plant actual emmissions from your driving may actually be more than a reasonably clean gas car. I don't have the source to post. And again, not trying to start a inflammatory theme in this thread...

I was going to post exactly the same comment/question.

 

[DaveyF]

I would suspect that the VW engineers are pulling their hair out right now. The company is in a difficult position...a) remove the offending software and the car pollutes...therefore one has to do a major redesign of the injectors and add urea in some way...an expensive solution ( IF at all even possible?) or- b) let the software run full time and the car will lose its performance aspects. The latter leading to more damage to the owner who acquired the car with the performance expectation. Should be interesting to see if VW chooses the more expensive ( possibly) alternative and goes with the major re-design. Alternatively, I suppose a cheap fix...like giving the poor consumer a "extended warranty" or some other kludge will do. As to their reputation, well that's another big question...how do you fix that??

 

[Mike Lavigne]

On the original topic, it is shameful indeed. They took a lesson from computer industry. Many years ago graphics card companies put in a hook in the driver that talks to their hardware to "sniff" what program is calling them. If it was a benchmark program, they would pretend to draw what was asked of them but in reality did nothing. This sharply increased their benchmark numbers but of course was not representative of any real life situation. A few years ago Samsung was caught with a simple file that had a list of the benchmarks on their tablet that they were cheating on. So benchmark vendors all had to do a lot of work to make this detection harder.

A few years ago VW set the target to become the highest volume car manufacturer in the world. That kind of pressure I am sure ultimately translated to the team thinking this kind of action was OK. So even if direct orders were not given from the top, the senior management had a responsibility for this and requirement to know enough about car design to seek out cheap solutions to hard problems.

My son has an older TDI passat. He loves it and gets superb gas mileage. I am unsure if it will be part of the recall or not. He bought it before VW announced their intention to achieve #1 status. The next version was cheaper designed.

All of this said, they make wonderful cars. All three of my sons have VW and their handling and feel is BMW like but at far cheaper price. Yet the touch and feel remains very nice. It put a smile on my face when I test drove them on their behalf.

if I had to guess what happened was that at the beginning VW thought they could figure out a correct solution in a short time and so put in the defeat mechanism to get the product going figuring they would solve it. it was so good that VW based lots of their identity on it which made it harder to stop. then since it was undetected they got cocky and assumed no one would catch on. this had to be the whole division that designed this engine. where it gets crazy is not ending it at some point and counting themselves lucky to have got away with what they did. instead they continued assuming they were bullet proof. I'm guessing that those responsible figured the punishment internally for coming clean was bad enough that it was worth the risk to continue. they bet the whole company on that.

it reminds me of Lance Armstrong. he got away with his lies for 7 years, and then retired. but his need for recognition was so strong that he came back and stirred up the opposition again and it ruined him.

the human ego knows no bounds.

the first lie is easy, but after that it's hard to stop. you start to believe your own lies.

 

[DaveC]

I was going to post exactly the same comment/question.

The issue with this is it depends on the time of day you are using the electricity. If it's during the night there is typically surplus and charging cars will just help us level our electricity demands which will increase the efficiency of electricity production and result in very little increase in overall demand and less pollution.

However, if you charge your car during peak hours for electricity use it would be contributing to the energy use problem and could be worse than burning gasoline, maybe...

 

[DaveyF]

if I had to guess what happened was that at the beginning VW thought they could figure out a correct solution in a short time and so put in the defeat mechanism to get the product going figuring they would solve it. it was so good that VW based lots of their identity on it which made it harder to stop. then since it was undetected they got cocky and assumed no one would catch on. this had to be the whole division that designed this engine. where it gets crazy is not ending it at some point and counting themselves lucky to have got away with what they did. instead they continued assuming they were bullet proof. I'm guessing that those responsible figured the punishment internally for coming clean was bad enough that it was worth the risk to continue. they bet the whole company on that.

it reminds me of Lance Armstrong. he got away with his lies for 7 years, and then retired. but his need for recognition was so strong that he came back and stirred up the opposition again and it ruined him.

the human ego knows no bounds.

the first lie is easy, but after that it's hard to stop. you start to believe your own lies.

Or alternatively, they knew all along that they might get caught and like so many companies these days, they built the additional fines and losses into the overall profit calculation. Therefore, the decision to continue and/or implement the behavior was made. The best way, IMHO, to stop this type of calculation/behavior is not with fines, but with forced cessation of the offending company.

 

[DaveC]

Or alternatively, they knew all along that they might get caught and like so many companies these days, they built the additional fines and losses into the overall profit calculation. Therefore, the decision to continue and/or implement the behavior was made. The best way, IMHO, to stop this type of calculation/behavior is not with fines, but with forced cessation of the offending company.

I agree. DuPont has been one of the worst for this, they basically poisoned the entire planet with C8 surfactant and did it on purpose because it's cheaper than dealing with it properly. People need to start going to prison over stuff like this.

 

[Groucho]

About 18 years ago I was working in the car industry, and helped to develop an engine analyser product for an oil company. When I went to commission the device I was chatting to an engineer whose job was testing the performance of fuel in typical road vehicles. He told me in no uncertain terms that various vehicles had 'defeat' mechanisms to improve their emissions when testing, and that part of his job was to defeat the defeat mechanism.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Or alternatively, they knew all along that they might get caught and like so many companies these days, they built the additional fines and losses into the overall profit calculation. Therefore, the decision to continue and/or implement the behavior was made. The best way, IMHO, to stop this type of calculation/behavior is not with fines, but with forced cessation of the offending company.

while I agree with the theory of what you say, unfortunately the real world means that many companies are 'too big to fail'. in the case of VW the local government owns 20% of it, and it's the largest company in Germany with over 200,000 employees. so the solution will have to be a political one that has to make sense for all parties.

I very much doubt that the high up bean counters ever got wind of this train wreck waiting to happen. if the board of directors or top level managers knew about it at all (until recent months) I would be surprised. this likely stopped at the desk of the head of the group in charge of that engine. otherwise the 'secret' would have been out much sooner and some sort of exit strategy would have been in place long ago to avoid this situation.

this situation clearly lacked any sort of strategic thinking that higher ups would have brought.

 

[Groucho]

while I agree with the theory of what you say, unfortunately the real world means that many companies are 'too big to fail'. in the case of VW the local government owns 20% of it, and it's the largest company in Germany with over 200,000 employees. so the solution will have to be a political one that has to make sense for all parties.

I very much doubt that the high up bean counters ever got wind of this train wreck waiting to happen. if the board of directors or top level managers knew about it at all (until recent months) I would be surprised. this likely stopped at the desk of the head of the group in charge of that engine. otherwise the 'secret' would have been out much sooner and some sort of exit strategy would have been in place long ago to avoid this situation.

this situation clearly lacked any sort of strategic thinking that higher ups would have brought.

It seems to me that apparent lower emissions were a win-win for governments and the car companies regardless of whether they actually were lower or not. In the UK we had a push for diesel because it was supposed to be better for the environment (hah!) but is now acknowledged as a mistake. I think that it was known to be a mistake at the time, but it was in no one's interest to cry foul. As always, for a government to be seen to be doing something is the aim of game, because the consequences will only come to light long after the individual politicians have left the scene.

http://durotrigan.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/review-great-car-con-channel-4.html

Edit: just this minute saw this news article:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/26/uk-tried-to-block-tougher-eu-car-emissions-tests

 

[amirm]

Edit: just this minute saw this news article:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/26/uk-tried-to-block-tougher-eu-car-emissions-tests

That's quite remarkable.