The Volkswagen debacle

[Andre Marc]

i'm not a neutral observer.

the Nissan dealership a half mile away was leasing 50 Nissan Leaf's a month last year. Tesla sells 50 new Tesla's a month in my immediate dealership marketplace. the Toyota dealership across the freeway was selling 140 Hybrids a month last year.

it's personal with me. even more than you as an owner of a Leaf.

and I view it as if i'm competing with my own tax dollars. on a dead technology. 'dead'...because the economic foundation that electric cars are built on is (1) direct tax subsidies, and (2) in-direct manufacturer legislated CAFE requirements. manufacturers take huge losses on electric cars to reach their CAFE requirements and simply build more of the less efficient more polluting cars. so your efforts to stay clean owning a Leaf are offset by the additional Nissan Titan trucks with V8's they can sell.

and all this attention to electrics, without the underlying technology to make it self supporting, just keeps the attention from other longer term solutions.

it's all smoke and mirrors with the electrics.

Your view is food for thought, thanks. I don't happen to agree, but as I noted, you are in the business, I am not. I am a consumer, and have a different perspective.

As I also noted, the foundation of our economy was derived from many subsidies, and the private sector then became self sufficient.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Your view is food for thought, thanks. I don't happen to agree, but as I noted, you are in the business, I am not. I am a consumer, and have a different perspective.

As I also noted, the foundation of our economy was derived from many subsidies, and the private sector then became self sufficient.

no....no.

the private sector came first.....then someone's buddy came up with the idea of subsidies. lots of hands out.

not saying that subsidies are all wrong. but mostly they suck.

a good one is ethanol. great for farmers. but it takes more fuel to make the corn than the savings. but if you have the legislative power then so what? farmers have power and want their corn prices higher. power = rights.

morality has little to do with anything.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

and the biggest problem with what we are talking about is you get the government in the position of anointing technologies instead of the marketplace.

not a good way to go unless you are winning a war or flying to the moon.

those were better uses of our tax dollars than this other stuff. and gave us more technology we have been able to actually use.

 

[Barry2013]

Skoda has now said that 1.2m of its cars are affected and SEAT 7000,000 0f its cars.
Recall of VW cars in the UK announced today and expected to take place quickly. Appears to be software fix but no real details yet.

 

[DaveyF]

Skoda has now said that 1.2m of its cars are affected and SEAT 7000,000 0f its cars.
Recall of VW cars in the UK announced today and expected to take place quickly. Appears to be software fix but no real details yet.

The software fix is probably fairly easy. Problem is that the loss of performance that goes along with that is a major factor. How many consumers would have considered the vehicle if they had knowledge of the fact that a software update would a) considerably reduce their power output and b) increase their diesel usage and decrease their miles per gallon/liter.
Mike, I believe if you look back on history, you will find that there have been many successful government subsidies that have assisted industries to get through the 'teething' stages. In order to get the electric vehicle industry on more solid ground, it was and is important for them to have this type of assistance. Remember, the old guard---gas engine vehicle manufacturer- has a major advantage in public awareness and acceptance. New technologies are always very expensive and time consuming to propagate and advance. Nonetheless, to attempt to put up road blocks or other impediments is not IMHO productive. The old saying..."one has to adjust to the times or risk being left behind". YMMV.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The software fix is probably fairly easy. Problem is that the loss of performance that goes along with that is a major factor. How many consumers would have considered the vehicle if they had knowledge of the fact that a software update would a) considerably reduce their power output and b) increase their diesel usage and decrease their miles per gallon/liter.
Mike, I believe if you look back on history, you will find that there have been many successful government subsidies that have assisted industries to get through the 'teething' stages. In order to get the electric vehicle industry on more solid ground, it was and is important for them to have this type of assistance. Remember, the old guard---gas engine vehicle manufacturer- has a major advantage in public awareness and acceptance. New technologies are always very expensive and time consuming to propagate and advance. Nonetheless, to attempt to put up road blocks or other impediments is not IMHO productive. The old saying..."one has to adjust to the times or risk being left behind". YMMV.

Davey,

fair enough. we can look back in 25 years and see how it worked out. until then we have to just watch.

Mike

 

[rblnr]

(subsidies) not a good way to go unless you are winning a war or flying to the moon.

Or trying to get off fossil fuels. Various other techs have at least some or a lot of govt. subsidies that helped them develop and thrive as well. You can make a very good argument that the US auto industry was pretty much stagnant from innovation standpoint until the CAFE standards played a big role in forcing their hand. As with real estate, etc., I don't see leaving everything to the market/profit motive as such a home run. And sure, there will misses such as ethanol and other blatant pork barreling, but their have been a lot of extremely positive outcomes as well.

Not sure why you believe battery technology can't advance the way most other techs have, certainly in the medium term. We'll see how the gigafactory plays out, the goal is to lower battery costs by 30%.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Or trying to get off fossil fuels. Various other techs have at least some or a lot of govt. subsidies that helped them develop and thrive as well. You can make a very good argument that the US auto industry was pretty much stagnant from innovation standpoint until the CAFE standards forced their hand.

the import invasion in the 70's had a much greater effect than CAFE, as well as the Arab fuel embargo and the price of fuel. but some folks just believe in big gov.

personally I like to allow market forces to rule. btw; I do believe that vehicle emissions is an area which is proper for the feds to govern....and safety is another appropriate area that should be regulated.

Not sure why you believe battery technology can't advance the way most other techs have, certainly in the medium term. We'll see how the gigafactory plays out, the goal is to lower battery costs by 30%.

we will all watch and hope.

 

[rblnr]

the import invasion in the 70's had a much greater effect than CAFE, as well as the Arab fuel embargo and the price of fuel. but some folks just believe in big gov.

Right, but that was last century. I think this century, it's a different story.

Anyway, back to diesel, assuming urea-based engines comply, it's a shame that diesel may get demonized as for the time being, it's a more efficient alternative for many vehicle classes.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Right, but that was last century. I think this century, it's a different story.

Anyway, back to diesel, assuming urea-based engines comply, it's a shame that diesel may get demonized as for the time being, it's a more efficient alternative for many vehicle classes.

cheap diesel pollutes excessively in 2015 with the newest VW's...there is nothing last century about it. cheap diesel should be demonized. it's just not trivial to burn clean, like coal.

the coal industry is about the same as diesel....it takes huge investments to make a coal fired power plant compliant. and since the coal industry has great lobbyists, with lots of people employed by coal, they are slow to fix the problem. they even destroy the land with their mining.

 

[rockitman]

I understand VW needs to be punished for the emissions misdeeds. It does not need to be driven into bankruptcy. That would be sad and very bad for many economies throughout the world that supply parts and build the cars. Think of all the families that would suffer from job losses. CAFE standards are complete horseshit and far too political.

 

[Andre Marc]

I understand VW needs to be punished for the emissions misdeeds. It does not need to be driven into bankruptcy. That would be sad and very bad for many economies throughout the world that supply parts and build the cars. Think of all the families that would suffer from job losses. CAFE standards are complete horseshit and far too political.

Maybe the first step in avoiding bankruptcy is not paying the CEO a Golden Parachute of 66 million dollars. The CAFE standards are not horseshit. That is your opinion.

 

[Barry2013]

Entirely coincidentally I have just finished watching an hour long documentary history of the diesel engine from the very beginning to the present day. Nearly three times as efficient from early on as petrol engines and now reach 50% efficiency. English engineer Ricardo invented the pre combustion Comet chamber which led to the first real diesel car in the 1930s, the Rosealee. Not a commercial success but the first modern diesel car. Did not realise that petrol engined tractors in the UK did not start to be replaced by diesels until as late as 1953. WW11 diesel submarines had a range 0f 11,500 miles. Giant marine diesel engines of 18.000 litres, 9 cylinders and three turbo chargers power the biggest container ships which carry 8.500 containers and have a range of 55,000 miles between refuelling and do over 30 knots cruising.
All rather off topic but I found it fascinating.

 

[Barry2013]

The software fix is probably fairly easy. Problem is that the loss of performance that goes along with that is a major factor. How many consumers would have considered the vehicle if they had knowledge of the fact that a software update would a) considerably reduce their power output and b) increase their diesel usage and decrease their miles per gallon/liter.
Mike, I believe if you look back on history, you will find that there have been many successful government subsidies that have assisted industries to get through the 'teething' stages. In order to get the electric vehicle industry on more solid ground, it was and is important for them to have this type of assistance. Remember, the old guard---gas engine vehicle manufacturer- has a major advantage in public awareness and acceptance. New technologies are always very expensive and time consuming to propagate and advance. Nonetheless, to attempt to put up road blocks or other impediments is not IMHO productive. The old saying..."one has to adjust to the times or risk being left behind". YMMV.

Yes agreed.
VW must be very vulnerable to compensation claims from consumers for fraud and misrepresentation assuming such results from the recall

 

[BruceD]

 

[DaveyF]

Maybe the first step in avoiding bankruptcy is not paying the CEO a Golden Parachute of 66 million dollars. The CAFE standards are not horseshit. That is your opinion.

+1
Anyone who has ever visited a 'third world' country would know how illogical it is to try to discredit or naysay emission standards. The air pollution that is prevalent in any country that has failed to enact emission standards is obvious to even the most casual onlooker. ( unless they happen to be 'blinkered' lol.. )
Nothing to do with politics, just pure common sense.( to most of us that is)

 

[Andre Marc]

+1
Anyone who has ever visited a 'third world' country would know how illogical it is to try to discredit or naysay emission standards. The air pollution that is prevalent in any country that has failed to enact emission standards is obvious to even the most casual onlooker. ( unless they happen to be 'blinkered' lol.. )
Nothing to do with politics, just pure common sense.( to most of us that is)

And only the most uninformed and clueless imbecile would claim the standards are anything but a win win for everybody. The auto industry had UNPRECEDENTED input into the CAFE standards.

 

[DaveyF]

One other question for all those who are defending the misdeeds of the large corporation...in this instance, VW. However,this would apply to ANY large corporation--
when is it acceptable to you to terminate the corporation in its entirety? ( to bankrupt is another question...bankruptcy is usually merely a legal strategy to remove creditors).
Is the answer when they have killed a single person, multiples, millions....someone close to you, or in your family??? Or, is the corporation simply immune to all of that and said corporation is to be preserved at ALL costs, regardless of the heinousness of the crime; simply too important to fail/cease due to the social/economic loss consequence. You tell me...

 

[DaveyF]

And only the most uninformed and clueless imbecile would claim the standards are anything but a win win for everybody. The auto industry had UNPRECEDENTED input into the CAFE standards.

 

[BlueFox]

And only the most uninformed and clueless imbecile would claim the standards are anything but a win win for everybody. The auto industry had UNPRECEDENTED input into the CAFE standards.

The auto industry has a history of whining about how hard and costly it is to implement anything. I remember their whining in the 60s over having to add seat belts, and the imbeciles who said it was better to be thrown clear in a wreck.