The best Dipoles, Dipoles that can do bass?

[Audiophile Bill]

Sure Bill.
But aren’t we talking more Danley pro audio horns?
Not bleeding edge audiophile single full range driver horns?

Yes sure or Funktion One or similar.

 

[Arcadian]

Hello to the forum from the manufacturers of the Pnoe horns.
I d like to clarify some points and questions which were mentioned in the thread.
First, the sound at the Munich Show was very disappointing to us. Unfortunately the room was not setup to allow the speakers to perform, and this was due to
the sharing of the room with other firms. There was no treatment, and moreover the hanging plastic wall-banner was adding a terrible midrange coloration. Also
the layout was effectively creating a nearfield setup which is definitely not the way to go with backloaded horns. These conditions unfortunately were above our control.
The Pnoes, when set up reasonably, dissapear and there is simply no coloration. Especially the new 2018 model has been significantly upgraded inside the horn with redesigned mid and high frequency isolation from the bass. Also, the new copper alloy baffle gives an even clearer presentation. The texture and harmonics have to be experienced to be appreciated as they are really unique. The Pnoe is a smooth and round horn and there are no standing waves or any other sources of reflections inside. The horn has the inherent phase shift but the bass is tight and super fast. We have tried subwoofers but in our experience and taste they simply cannot cope, and of course there is a crossover added to the output, which leaves a signature in the form of slight graininess.
Secondly, the amplifier used was not just a simple solid state unit. It was a 2*110W, 2 stage WE437-interstage-mosfet amp with no cap in the signal path and all silver tranformer volume control. In a proper setup it enables the Pnoe to present even the most dynamic orchestral pieces with breathtaking detail and a huge soundstage. In the past we have also listened to the Pnoe with a high-specd WE 300B amp with excellent results.
Thirdly, the Pnoe basically does not need to be modded as it is provided with a pure signal path (no cap or resistor), a very high quality internal cable (by Crystal Cable), and, as I mentioned above, an optimized internal isolation system to remove all horn coloration. We are very happy to upgrade all previously produced Pnoes to the 2018 model.
We will be arranging auditions in the UK as there are several parties interested to hear them in a well set up room and we will be informing the forum when we arrange them.
Thank you for your interest in our speaker, and we will be happy to answer any other question which arises.

 

[infinitely baffled]

IB, don’t torture poor Ked, you know this stuff is not for him.
I’m curious that you would even consider horns for such specific subsonic bass-oriented material.

Apologies to Ked

Well when i was a part of a sound system (Exodus), we ran a mix of sealed boxes, w- bins and scoops for bass.
When i researched the best subwoofers to run outside in my amphitheatre and complementing my EAW thx-spec full range cabinets the consensus on the pro sound forum was either the Danley Labhorn or EAW's bh883, aka Big Bertha aka Levan, the mahoosive bass horns that underpinned the Ministry of Sound's rig at the time it was considered the best dance rig in the world
So i hoped that horns could provide the sound i am looking for, but maybe supplemented with sealed boxes.
Which the Velodynes are, of course

Also the Pnoe have a further advantage....weighing 60kg or thereabouts, and with high efficiency and good power handling, and with a minor structural rejigging chez gav, the Pnoe could also double as outside speakers for the amphitheatre.
Where they are now sited is just in front of patio windows, the other side of the glass is a small patio commanding the amphitheatre so it wouldnt be too hard to shuffle them out of the patio doors, turn 180 degrees and i have sounds outside.....without going to the considerable trouble of building outside enclosures for the vending machine sized EAW 4973f's, and without requiring the 14 channels of pro sound amplification, plus crossovers plus dsp, to drive two 4973f's and four bh883's

 

[infinitely baffled]

Hello to the forum from the manufacturers of the Pnoe horns.
I d like to clarify some points and questions which were mentioned in the thread.
First, the sound at the Munich Show was very disappointing to us. Unfortunately the room was not setup to allow the speakers to perform, and this was due to
the sharing of the room with other firms. There was no treatment, and moreover the hanging plastic wall-banner was adding a terrible midrange coloration. Also
the layout was effectively creating a nearfield setup which is definitely not the way to go with backloaded horns. These conditions unfortunately were above our control.
The Pnoes, when set up reasonably, dissapear and there is simply no coloration. Especially the new 2018 model has been significantly upgraded inside the horn with redesigned mid and high frequency isolation from the bass. Also, the new copper alloy baffle gives an even clearer presentation. The texture and harmonics have to be experienced to be appreciated as they are really unique. The Pnoe is a smooth and round horn and there are no standing waves or any other sources of reflections inside. The horn has the inherent phase shift but the bass is tight and super fast. We have tried subwoofers but in our experience and taste they simply cannot cope, and of course there is a crossover added to the output, which leaves a signature in the form of slight graininess.
Secondly, the amplifier used was not just a simple solid state unit. It was a 2*110W, 2 stage WE437-interstage-mosfet amp with no cap in the signal path and all silver tranformer volume control. In a proper setup it enables the Pnoe to present even the most dynamic orchestral pieces with breathtaking detail and a huge soundstage. In the past we have also listened to the Pnoe with a high-specd WE 300B amp with excellent results.
Thirdly, the Pnoe basically does not need to be modded as it is provided with a pure signal path (no cap or resistor), a very high quality internal cable (by Crystal Cable), and, as I mentioned above, an optimized internal isolation system to remove all horn coloration. We are very happy to upgrade all previously produced Pnoes to the 2018 model.
We will be arranging auditions in the UK as there are several parties interested to hear them in a well set up room and we will be informing the forum when we arrange them.
Thank you for your interest in our speaker, and we will be happy to answer any other question which arises.

Good to have you aboard, and thank you for posting

 

[infinitely baffled]

The horn has the inherent phase shift but the bass is tight and super fast. We have tried subwoofers but in our experience and taste they simply cannot cope, and of course there is a crossover added to the output, which leaves a signature in the form of slight graininess.
.

That's a blow.
So your system can't express the lower frequencies?
The idea of a rig that can't be flat down to 16hz is a major turn off for me. There's just so much information down there in the music i adore.
While i can accept main speakers limited to ~30hz when complemented by subs, just doing away with the sub 30hz region is a complete non starter
.
Perhaps the Pnoe arent for me after all

 

[Zero000]

That's a blow.
So your system can't express the lower frequencies?
The idea of a rig that can't be flat down to 16hz is a major turn off for me. There's just so much information down there in the music i adore.
While i can accept main speakers limited to ~30hz when complemented by subs, just doing away with the sub 30hz region is a complete non starter
.
Perhaps the Pnoe arent for me after all

I agree with you I don't think they are. I really don't, playing your YouTube videos.

I gave up trying to integrate a Martin Logan Descent with my Apogees. It just couldn't keep up. I also knew, as you say, exactly where it was in the room. You need two subs no matter what anyone says IMHO, but I am space constrained at the moment and I am sure I could have got a better result with more space and effort and expense. But I am also sure it would never be satisfactory. Long throw subs just push air differently to a short throw high surface area panel.

I covered the bad boy bass rooms at Munich here. Read on until you get to the JBLs, where the bad boy bass coverage stops.

EDIT: JBL is post #143.

 

[853guy]

That's a blow.
So your system can't express the lower frequencies?
The idea of a rig that can't be flat down to 16hz is a major turn off for me. There's just so much information down there in the music i adore.
While i can accept main speakers limited to ~30hz when complemented by subs, just doing away with the sub 30hz region is a complete non starter
.
Perhaps the Pnoe arent for me after all

Hi infinitely baffled,

Wow. 16Hz is your in-room low frequency cutoff point?

If 16Hz really is achievable in your room, then I would imagine you may be better off with conventional multi-way dynamic drivers. That’s not to say you can’t achieve sub-20Hz bass with a horn (a single driver won't even come close, and will as Arcadian has mentioned result in phase shift as the speaker descends in frequency), just that that horn is going to be really, really, really big given the physics of the horn's cutoff is dictated by its dimensions/driver. And as both Arcadian and User 211 have alluded to, the way in which LF information is delivered via a horn or a planar/stat is obviously very different than a conventional cone in a box, even in cases in which the box is sealed.

Also, as you probably know, vinyl is a physically-defined format. When subject to too much signal (i.e. the musical content approaches the limits of the interface between the lacquer’s physicality and the cutting head/amplifier/electronics of the lathe) sound quality deteriorates.

In most cases, “too much” involves excessive high-frequency energy (hi-hats, cymbals, vocal sibilance, upper-end harmonic distortion from the mix), stereo width of low frequencies, high amplitude of low frequencies, and extreme stereo width/180 degree out-of-phase elements of the mix (again, especially those lower in frequency), of which electronica possesses some or often all of these. (1)

That’s not to say that those elements can’t be cut (2). It’s just much more likely they’ll be cut with greater amounts of distortion, lack of dynamic range, and at an overall lower signal-to-noise ratio (where the noise of the lacquer itself intrudes into quieter passages of the music).

Vinyl has its limits. They’re ones that are physically/electrically defined. That it can as a medium give a tremendous amount of musical enjoyment to the listener is without question - as it often has for me. However, for mixes or content in which the above are present, it’s possible the listener may prefer the digital master, even in cases in which he or she has an overall preference for vinyl playback.

As many vinyl lovers continue to testify to, the quality of the original recording and its mix/master can only ever be as good as the mastering engineer’s knowledge of their lathe and its capabilities relative to his or her skill at cutting that signal into the lacquer.

Best,

853guy


(1) Generally, a mastering engineer will process any problematic elements in the mix and attempt to ameliorate their effect on how the vinyl is cut. Mono-ing of low frequency content, reduction of high-frequency content and reduction of stereo width are often the results. Of course, this will usually mean the analogue master is therefore different to the digital one, if not only in content, then very possibly in quality depending on the quality and content of the mix the ME is working with. Even where the ME is extremely competent and experienced, there’s only so much that can be done with the mix they’re given, and especially so when it comes to cutting vinyl.

(2) 16Hz is also very close to the resonant frequency of some cart/arm combinations. Even in cases in which the speaker/room interface allows for true 16Hz replay, it's likely the pressing/cart/arm will be struggling (if it's present in the pressing at all).

Edit: Amended as per the above posts from Arcadian and User 211.

 

[infinitely baffled]

I agree with you I don't think they are. I really don't, playing your YouTube videos.

I gave up trying to integrate a Martin Logan Descent with my Apogees. It just couldn't keep up. I also knew, as you say, exactly where it was in the room. You need two subs no matter what anyone says IMHO, but I am space constrained at the moment and I am sure I could have got a better result with more space and effort and expense. But I am also sure it would never be satisfactory. Long throw subs just push air differently to a short throw high surface area panel.

I covered the bad boy bass rooms at Munich here. Read on until you get to the JBLs, where the bad boy bass coverage stops.

EDIT: JBL is post #143.

Just spent an enjoyable half hour reading your show reports and admiring the pics.
Would you say that the Bohne speakers top the list of bad boy bass monsters?

Nice demo track you used, very musical, quite subtle but still with weighty, extended bass

 

[infinitely baffled]

Just spotted that the Bohne speakers are dipoles in the upper frequecies

http://bohne-audio.com/de/international-information-english/

Very interesting.
Only issue is, when i heard the Trinnov pre amp here it convincingly lost out to my Wavac.
Sounded more hifi, less magical, less musical

 

[Zero000]

Just spotted that the Bohne speakers are dipoles in the upper frequecies

http://bohne-audio.com/de/international-information-english/

Very interesting.
Only issue is, when i heard the Trinnov pre amp here it convincingly lost out to my Wavac.
Sounded more hifi, less magical, less musical

Yeah they are dipoles since they use a short Apogee like ribbon.

I am NOT advocating TRINNOV, DIRAC or anything along those lines unless your system has an issue you need to address and can't easily by other means.

The Bohne system top of the list? Hm. Hard one. I just enjoyed the room a lot cos of the host playing the sort of music I liked loud. No other room really did that so well.

For bass all the speakers I mentioned are good, though they all do it differently. You'd have to hear them all and decide for yourself. The JBLs are EASILY the best value way to get some loud bass handled well, though.

 

[infinitely baffled]

Hi infinitely baffled,

Wow. 16Hz is your in-room low frequency cutoff point?

If 16Hz really is achievable in your room, then I would imagine you may be better off with conventional multi-way dynamic drivers. That’s not to say you can’t achieve sub-20Hz bass with a horn (a single driver won't even come close, and will as Arcadian has mentioned result in phase shift as the speaker descends in frequency), just that that horn is going to be really, really, really big given the physics of the horn's cutoff is dictated by its dimensions/driver. And as both Arcadian and User 211 have alluded to, the way in which LF information is delivered via a horn or a planar/stat is obviously very different than a conventional cone in a box, even in cases in which the box is sealed.

/QUOTE]

Hello yourself, 853guy

Yes, this was my thinking behind posting the youtube clips. There's a lot of different interpretations of the meaning of sub bass, this is what it means to me

 

[wisnon]

Inf Baffle

Did you cover Pure Audio Project here already?
http://www.pureaudioproject.com/product/trio15-heil-amt-open-baffle-speakers/

or http://www.pureaudioproject.com/trio15-horn-open-baffle-speakers/

or http://www.pureaudioproject.com/trio15-voxativ-open-baffle-speakers/

or http://www.pureaudioproject.com/product/trio15-beyma-tpl150-open-baffle-speakers/

 

[853guy]

Hello yourself, 853guy

Yes, this was my thinking behind posting the youtube clips. There's a lot of different interpretations of the meaning of sub bass, this is what it means to me

Hey!

Sorry, the above was written in haste whilst multi-tasking, and looking back over your comments, you’ve already answered most of your own concerns I think, making the content of my post redundant before I had even typed it. I’ll be sure to pick up my Stating The Obvious award on my way out.

Be well,

853guy

 

[infinitely baffled]

 

[infinitely baffled]

Inf Baffle

Did you cover Pure Audio Project here already?
http://www.pureaudioproject.com/product/trio15-heil-amt-open-baffle-speakers/

or http://www.pureaudioproject.com/trio15-horn-open-baffle-speakers/

or http://www.pureaudioproject.com/trio15-voxativ-open-baffle-speakers/

or http://www.pureaudioproject.com/product/trio15-beyma-tpl150-open-baffle-speakers/

They look interesting. Is the top of the line the €16k version with field coil driver?
I'd just started going through them when my battery died. Will continue once I've walked the dogs and cleared my head.
I feel as though i am in mourning for les pneus

 

[spiritofmusic]

Gavin, you’re dismissing the Pnoes prematurely.
Why don’t you go listen to them and tell us what you think.
We’ll swap notes, I’m down to hear them on Saturday.

 

[infinitely baffled]

Ok, i hear that

 

[spiritofmusic]

I don’t really listen to yr very bass heavy material.
But I have a few prog and fusion lps that test the very best systems, and I’ll bring those along.
The General from what I’ve heard has some crazy bass torture albums, so let’s see/hear what comes to pass.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

They look interesting. Is the top of the line the €16k version with field coil driver?
I'd just started going through them when my battery died. Will continue once I've walked the dogs and cleared my head.
I feel as though i am in mourning for les pneus

Hi Baffled,

Those speakers go absolutely nowhere near even 25hz. The open baffle bass will get to low 30s in room. They give up 20db also...

 

[Arcadian]

Yes, the Pnoes cannot go lower than 25-27 Hz or so, that is without some help from a DSP system or sub. But its magic, and I mean it, is in the texture of the sound, voices etc. and the harmonics of the instruments. Many people, including us, prefer to have such a system compared to an 'standard' sounding setup which goes down to 16 Hz. We really doubt that such a system can deliver trully clean and fast bass, the 'leatherness' of the drums, the 'woodness' of the violin etc. like the Pnoes. And of course the possibility to drive the speakers with a minimalist super-transparent amp like a 2-stage 300B or hybrid, is very limited. In many people's experience the first watts are the best..., I propose you listen to the Pnoes, you might be surprised. Totally pure signal path, no crossover, one driver and no box. With the right cables it really is an experience which one does not forget.