The best Dipoles, Dipoles that can do bass?

[Audiophile Bill]

I'd say it depends what music you like. Organ, reggae and high impact electronica and you'd need something after the initial thrill of that drive unit's mid/treble performance tells you you have no real deep bass.

I believe there is some trace of the material used for the horn causing some degree of colouration in the sound. But that's true of a lot of loudspeakers. It's there but it isn't that bad.

I think you'll really enjoy them. I wouldn't mind a few months with them I have to say. They grew on me as the demo went on.

Hi Justin,

Good to read about your impressions of the Pnoe. I think you would really enjoy something like your 211 amps with these. That is honestly where the fun begins. Not sure why Arcadian used 100+ watts of hybrid. I have heard these with loads of SETs now. The magic of the 1.25 watt Mayer 46 is unparalleled, but the madness that ensues with NAT Magmas needs to be heard. I think for your diet of electronica you’ll prefer the Magma but I still think the 211 could also be fun.

A quick note on bass. I spent last weekend listening to drum and bass and the extension was by ear to around low 30s I would say. But the quantity, texture and speed was literally utter madness. Takes a little accommodation to the type of bass also as it is free from box colouration.

Your conclusion on that driver is spot on - that thing is the work of an *obsessed* perfectionist who has really one mission in life and that is to do something brilliant and to hell with the rest of it. I spoke to Filip (the designer) earlier this week and the obscene attention to detail is mind bending. By the way - for the utter savages out there he can make that driver with a voicecoil capable of 1000 watts...

 

[infinitely baffled]

Thank you very much for the invitation.

View attachment 41114

In creating the Lotus Group Granada loudspeaker our aim was to join the qualities of a most sublime full range driver with real world bass performance. Its open baffle design affords ease of room interaction and a natural and organic presentation of the sound stage. Active bi-amplification provides a direct path between amplifier and driver. Multiple measurements were taken in our quasi-anechoic chamber to determine optimal slopes, adjust power response and to maximize linearity. Its room correction capability insures perfect mating to any room, and allows for fine tuning based on listener preference while remaining entirely within correct parameters. Our custom, hands-on calibration is included with installation.

We were honored to have the Granada included in the Absolute Sound’s, ‘Illustrated History of High End Audio’, Loudspeaker Edition.

Forum members who find themselves in or near Northern California Wine Country are welcome to stop by for an audition.

What would be the in room frequency response Joe?
Specifically the low frequency extension

Also you mentioned that you make a subwoofer, can you share any details or pictures?

 

[Joe Cohen]

What would be the in room frequency response Joe?
Specifically the low frequency extension

Also you mentioned that you make a subwoofer, can you share any details or pictures?

The Granadas on their own extend to 25 Hz with a slight roll off. The Feastrex driver begins a gentle natural roll off at 12k at the top. A rear firing tweeter is employed to balance dipole power response. The Granada subwoofer system can be scaled from 2 to 8 units, each with 2 12” woofers. An additional DSP crossover is employed to tune each subwoofer for its position and the sub system as a whole. The eight subwoofer system consists of 2 units in each corner, one on the floor and one mounted on the ceiling. With this arrangement we can create proper bass response for any listening position in the room.

 

[infinitely baffled]

The Granadas are =/- 3db at 25 Hz. The Feastrex driver begins a gentle natural roll off at 12k. A rear firing tweeter is employed to balance dipole power response. The Granada subwoofer system can be scaled from 2 to 8 units, each with 2 12” woofers. An additional DSP crossover is employed to tune each subwoofer for its position and the sub system as a whole. The eight subwoofer system consists of 2 units in each corner, one on the floor and one mounted on the ceiling. With this arrangement we can create proper bass response for any listening position in the room.

My experience of locating subwoofers in my room has lead me to a place of scepticism on this issue of the non directionality of sub 36hz bass production.
Or in other words, i can clearly hear when the sub bass is coming from a different location and moving in a different direction to the signal from the main speakers. When the subs are adjacent to the main speakers there is a cohesion to the sound that gets lost as soon as one tries planting subs in other locations based on room nodes and the like.

Also, a subwoofer installer can identify the in room location where the sub will be most effective.
But is this desireable?
I don't want the sub to dominate the listening experience, but to complement what the main speakers are doing.
Sited in the sub installers preferred location i achieved room shaking bass with very low sub output, but the sound was unpleasant. In fact it was what the naysayers would predict from using additional subs, a flat sound with no nuance that was incredibly fatiguing.
Returning home from walking the dogs with a friend, when i had left music playing to burn in components with all of my house's windows shut, we could hear awesome bass from about half a mile away....with the subs' volume contols set to 7.
Out of 70.....

Once i got fed up with this i relocated the subs to outside, and just a little behind the main speakets, and suddenly i got the effect i was hoping for. The subs were now having to work harder, setting 29 to 32 for dance music, but they no longer dominated and were complementing my main speakers

One other thing....this business of using the subs to fill out gaps left by the main speakers above 40hz really robs the music of its air, it's light and contrast. The installers had the subs coming in at 76hz, when i drop that to 40hz the music can breathe again

 

[infinitely baffled]

I'd say it depends what music you like. Organ, reggae and high impact electronica and you'd need something after the initial thrill of that drive unit's mid/treble performance tells you you have no real deep bass.

I believe there is some trace of the material used for the horn causing some degree of colouration in the sound. But that's true of a lot of loudspeakers. It's there but it isn't that bad.

I think you'll really enjoy them. I wouldn't mind a few months with them I have to say. They grew on me as the demo went on.

You've given me cause to pause for thought
Something tells me it may be harder integrate sealed box subs with a full range horn, than more conventional speakers and said subs.
I'd really be a lot happier if Arcadia also manufactured a complementary sub bass reinforcement system.
So i may be wavering just a little....the idea of a genuine full range system, even using separate subs designed by the same team as the main speakers, remains appealing

 

[spiritofmusic]

IB, I’ll be hearing the Pnoes BD4 v soon, will ensure I audition with some challenging funk/fusion/electric jazz, some organ music too.
I’ll let you know if subs are missed.
From what I gather, no subs are going to keep up with the lightning reactive Pnoes, I think this is a dead end.
You either accept Pnoes as is, or move on.

 

[Joe Cohen]

Subwoofers must always be in the service of the room, not the other way around. No amount of moving things around can substitute for properly calibrated bass. The installer should be able to not only come up with good measurements, but also be able to understand how music is supposed to sound.

 

[bonzo75]

I'd say it depends what music you like. Organ, reggae and high impact electronica and you'd need something after the initial thrill of that drive unit's mid/treble performance tells you you have no real deep bass.

I believe there is some trace of the material used for the horn causing some degree of colouration in the sound. But that's true of a lot of loudspeakers. It's there but it isn't that bad.

I think you'll really enjoy them. I wouldn't mind a few months with them I have to say. They grew on me as the demo went on.

I heard these over the weekend at the General's place. These sound completely different from the sound at Munich (which was bad, Brad described it accurately that at Munich the bass came with a whump) and the 2016 sound at Marriott was much worse. However, this room was fantastic. We first heard with NAT Magma and then the Thomas Mayer 1w 46 valves driven by 46. It sounded good with both, the higher power of the NAT made the bass a bit over but with the Mayer, the bass was more perfectly integrated. The NAT had a bit forward soundstage, the room would have to be much larger for the NATs, with the Mayer, the noise floor dropped, the speakers disappeared, and the distance to stage seemed more normal.

These were the fastest and most liquid speakers I heard across violin concertos. The inflections and nuances were better with the Mayer, as was the rise and fall of the orchestra. You could hear minute details with great tone of woodwinds, brass, violins, cello, all individual inflections being heard and appreciated with excellent tone. The only caveat is that the analog set up and the recordings were the best I have heard, so the source is far beyond what I have ever experienced before. The General has 250 - 300k vinyl, extremely clean pressings of the best performances and recordings, and these were playing off a Vyger Indian Signature with the Top Wing Red Sparrow into a Mayer 10Y, and he probably knows more about analog set ups than anyone I have met. Also the speakers had mods that made them different from what was at Munich. This was a fanatically purist approach with no caps and resistors in the path, no crossover, and a coreless cartridge. Because the speakers are so tall and vertical, unlike most other horns they do give that planar like feeling of a large tall stage and transparency.

To IB: we also played some funky bass track - in all likelihood you will not have to worry, as these get seriously loud, are extremely fast, and have loads of bass. But I am not familiar with the type of music you listen to, so cannot comment much.

 

[infinitely baffled]

To IB: we also played some funky bass track - in all likelihood you will not have to worry, as these get seriously loud, are extremely fast, and have loads of bass. But I am not familiar with the type of music you listen to, so cannot comment much.

I barely think our tastes could be more different, Ked

For example, below.
This sort of thing is my sine que non - without which not
Meaning it's what my system is designed for, and any component that doesn't exhilirate with this style fails the entry test

This is a track played by UK drum and bass legend, LTJ Bukem.
Like others of the genre the melody is in the sub bass. And the scale is awesome
In my system now it sounds as though some lunatic just over the horizon is conducting explosions, while the cast of mad max attempt to murder their drums in the foreground

Obviously the vinyl helps

 

[infinitely baffled]

Something contempory in a deep house style.
Here the sub bass is more rhythmic, percussive

 

[infinitely baffled]

Imho this is the best tune by anyone, ever.
It's all about the interplay of melody, rhythm and bass.
The bass has varying mpact and resonance that create a journey as the track develops, overlaid with a gorgeous ambience and sense of space coming from the treble and mids
My system must have the bass power and headroom to go from terrific slam to awesome thump as the musical changes require

 

[infinitely baffled]

Just playing that last one again, it sounds as though the devil himself were beating on my door



This one is downtempo, trip hop
The room shudders as it spirals

 

[infinitely baffled]

Last two, from over the pond

Do you remember that thrill when you first heard a decent pair of bookshelf speakers hooked up to a good amp, and you heard bass you couldnt believe came out such small boxes?
These last two hip hop monsters manage the same surprise when you're looking at a wall of speakers.
Your expectations are high, but when the music starts you're still shocked at the sensation of sharing the room with something your brain tells is far too big to fit

 

[infinitely baffled]

Deep house these days has seismic bass

 

[infinitely baffled]

Finally, back to where it all began, dub reggae

 

[infinitely baffled]

Subwoofers must always be in the service of the room, not the other way around. No amount of moving things around can substitute for properly calibrated bass. The installer should be able to not only come up with good measurements, but also be able to understand how music is supposed to sound.

Can i ask, what configuration are your subs?

As in, sealed box, open baffle etc

 

[infinitely baffled]

Sorry folks. Probably got a bit carried away there. But its easier to demonstrate than explain what my idea of deep bass is

 

[spiritofmusic]

IB, don’t torture poor Ked, you know this stuff is not for him.
I’m curious that you would even consider horns for such specific subsonic bass-oriented material.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

IB, don’t torture poor Ked, you know this stuff is not for him.
I’m curious that you would even consider horns for such specific subsonic bass-oriented material.

Hi Marc,

Horn loaded bass is the weapon of choice in the environment where this music is played - especially big venues.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure Bill.
But aren’t we talking more Danley pro audio horns?
Not bleeding edge audiophile single full range driver horns?