Tariffs on used audio gear

[microstrip]

You do not seem to understand the mechanism of VAT. The Wikipedia page has a good example:

View attachment 158168
The burden of the tax is all on the end consumer, but collection and repayment back to the state is actually shared by all actors in the supply (value) chain.

If you had read with more care my post you would have seen that I was just specifically addressing a finished imported good coming from a country outside EC - e.g. a VTL amplifier entering Portugal ... The actors are just dealer and consumer.

It was still an answer to a question triggered by an eBay sales posted by Tim.

 

[microstrip]

Stating that sales taxes are regressive is not a political statement and is not open for debate! It’s a fact.

Ok, a fact that would start a political discussion ...

 

[hopkins]

Ok, a fact that would start a political discussion ...

Why do you say « I will not enter a political debate on VAT, sorry » ?

You are implying that I wanted to start a political debate….don’t put words in my mouth that I did not say. Thanks.

 

[hopkins]

If you had read with more care my post you would have seen that I was just specifically addressing a finished imported good coming from a country outside EC - e.g. a VTL amplifier entering Portugal ... The actors are just dealer and consumer.

Yes, I read what you said, and your statements ("the distributor pays the VAT just on the amount of the goods at the time he gets them (the factory price) and just pays the extra value to the tax people when he sells") is so imprecise and vague that it could be interpreted in different ways. Make a little effort to present your arguments more clearly!

The general rule is that VAT paid on goods entering the EU is deducted from the VAT collected at the time of the sale. The difference is a tax credit or liability...

In France - not sure this is the case in all EU countries but I believe it is the same in Portugal - VAT on imports is not paid (as long as the buyer has a VAT registration) and is automatically deducted (“auto-liquidation”), in the same way than what is done for a purchase with another EU country. Of course, if you are an individual (end customer) you are still going to pay VAT on goods you import.

So in summary, the distributor importing the VTL amplifier in Portugal will pay no VAT at the time of the purchase, and will simply collect VAT from his local customer when he sells the amp (and transfer that VAT back to the tax authorities).

 

[Atmasphere]

I am curious if any of the forum members in the USA have experience with sending their audio equipment outside of USA for warranty/repair work since tariffs have been imposed. Were additional tariff charges imposed on the return to USA?

Customs usually tries to impose import duty on equipment we've made that was coming back for repair or update. Now I imagine that will be complicated by tariffs. Not sure how this will affect brokerage fees (for dealing with customs).

 

[bonzo75]

Customs usually tries to impose import duty on equipment we've made that was coming back for repair or update.

Even if you have marked repair? They try to charge duty on the cost of the amp or the repair amount

 

[Atmasphere]

Even if you have marked repair? They try to charge duty on the cost of the amp or the repair amount

Yes- and for the full cost of the amp. They don't tend to read the commercial invoice...

 

[microstrip]

Yes, I read what you said, and your statements ("the distributor pays the VAT just on the amount of the goods at the time he gets them (the factory price) and just pays the extra value to the tax people when he sells") is so imprecise and vague that it could be interpreted in different ways. Make a little effort to present your arguments more clearly!

I see I am loosing time with you - I just made a descriptive post of what really happens, without fancy words.

The general rule is that VAT paid on goods entering the EU is deducted from the VAT collected at the time of the sale. The difference is a tax credit or liability...

VAT rules are different when importing goods from EC or outside EC.

In France - not sure this is the case in all EU countries but I believe it is the same in Portugal - VAT on imports is not paid (as long as the buyer has a VAT registration) and is automatically deducted (“auto-liquidation”), in the same way than what is done for a purchase with another EU country. Of course, if you are an individual (end customer) you are still going to pay VAT on goods you import.


So in summary, the distributor importing the VTL amplifier in Portugal will pay no VAT at the time of the purchase, and will simply collect VAT from his local customer when he sells the amp (and transfer that VAT back to the tax authorities).

Sorry, wrong. VAT is due in the process of importing VTLs. Otherwise we would all become dealers, VTLs would never be sold and never pay VAT ...

 

[microstrip]

Customs usually tries to impose import duty on equipment we've made that was coming back for repair or update. Now I imagine that will be complicated by tariffs. Not sure how this will affect brokerage fees (for dealing with customs).

In EC, we must fill the papers for a temporary export with a proper justification, merchandise is inspected when leaving and re-inspected when entering. VAT is paid on the value of the repair invoice and shipping expenses. Some taxes and brokerage fees are added to the final bill.

Unfortunately some people send goods for repair without going through this process and on return must pay full taxes on it. As they do not have an invoice on the whole equipment customs valuate it ...

 

[microstrip]

Why do you say « I will not enter a political debate on VAT, sorry » ?

You are implying that I wanted to start a political debate….don’t put words in my mouth that I did not say. Thanks.

Some of us were playing fun with the politics of VAT and wine, my apologies for upsetting you. I was not implying anything.

 

[astrotoy]

Late last Spring I sent my Lampizator Horizon back to Poland (from California) to be upgraded to the Horizon 360 (cost around $US5000). When it was returned to me I was charged $500 for tariff or duty, collected by the shipping company when it was delivered to my home in California. At that time the tariff to the EU was 10%. My previous upgrades sent to Poland from the US were never charged a tariff.

Larry

 

[hopkins]

Some of us were playing fun with the politics of VAT and wine, my apologies for upsetting you. I was not implying anything.

You are quite presumptuous to think you upset me. I was just clarifying things.

 

[hopkins]

I see I am loosing time with you - I just made a descriptive post of what really happens, without fancy words.



VAT rules are different when importing goods from EC or outside EC.



Sorry, wrong. VAT is due in the process of importing VTLs. Otherwise we would all become dealers, VTLs would never be sold and never pay VAT ...

if you have a business, I suggest you get an accountant who is up to date on current tax legislation in the EU

Postponed VAT accounting: What is it and how does it work?

Postponed VAT accounting is a way to allow businesses to declare and immediately recover import VAT. Here's what you need to know.

marosavat.com

 

[microstrip]

if you have a business, I suggest you get an accountant who is up to date on current tax legislation in the EU

Postponed VAT accounting: What is it and how does it work?

Postponed VAT accounting is a way to allow businesses to declare and immediately recover import VAT. Here's what you need to know.

marosavat.com

Fortunately professional accountants in EC know VAT laws and do not carry their duties using google or AI ... You are just referring to exceptions with some goods in some countries.

I addressed a particular case in a particular country.

 

[hopkins]

Fortunately professional accountants in EC know VAT laws and do not carry their duties using google or AI ... You are just referring to exceptions with some goods in some countries.

I addressed a particular case in a particular country.

No I am not referring to exceptions, and I don’t see what makes importing amplifiers specific, but you are right, I am not a specialist in Portuguese legislation, and the link I included is not « official ». In France all the legislation is available online, there is no need to refer to other sources. Mocking someone for using online ressources is a bit silly nowadays…

 

[Atmasphere]

I just ordered a pair of EF86s (a small signal audio tube, usually used in low noise applications) on ebay. They are used in my Neumann U67s as a preamp (wired in triode). The pair I found were a nice set of NOS Valvos. No such luck though- won't ship to the US due to tariffs (which would be about $76.00).

IMO, pretty ridiculous for a part that has never been made in the US and as far as I know, Valvo (no longer by that name and a subsidiary of Phillips) isn't making tubes anymore either. Its not like that tariff is going to bring tube manufacturing to the US...

There is no US equivalent although some tubes, like the 6267, are pretty close.

 

[hopkins]

C’est

I just ordered a pair of EF86s (a small signal audio tube, usually used in low noise applications) on ebay. They are used in my Neumann U67s as a preamp (wired in triode). The pair I found were a nice set of NOS Valvos. No such luck though- won't ship to the US due to tariffs (which would be about $76.00).

IMO, pretty ridiculous for a part that has never been made in the US and as far as I know, Valvo (no longer by that name and a subsidiary of Phillips) isn't making tubes anymore either. Its not like that tariff is going to bring tube manufacturing to the US...

There is no US equivalent although some tubes, like the 6267, are pretty close.

Perhaps a result of this?

Loading…

eu.usatoday.com

 

[Atmasphere]

C’est

Perhaps a result of this?

Loading…

eu.usatoday.com

Yes... not that I can blame them. You'd think anything vintage would be exempt.

 

[Lagonda]

I just bought an expensive cartridge from Europe and was hit with a 15% tariff called an import duty charge by UPS. I had to pay it before delivery. Of course I did not like paying it and it was a complete surprise, but I wanted the cartridge and it did not change my behavior.

I agree with Tom that I believe in fair trade and the Europeans have been paying a tariff on US audio goods for years. This affects our Audio companies. It’s time to level the playing field. Perhaps some audio files here will reconsider domestic audio designs.

The effect on used and new audio equipment is that it will raise prices on imported gear. We will have to adjust and may make different choices or not. I don’t really buy much audio gear anymore , and most of it is from the US anyway.

The cartridge sounds fantastic and I have no regrets.

And a lot of us European audio buyers are opting out of buying American products these days, focusing on locally made products instead for various reasons. Local tariffs have little to do with it. We do have high sales taxes on shipping and all goods in general.

 

[Lagonda]

I wonder how many more Magico and Wilson speakers and Pass and Macintosh amps there would be sold around the world if these US made goods did not face tariffs or import duties or VAT taxes. Sometimes the Audio playing field gets rebalanced.

American products are taxed with the same VAT charges as local made products, as they should be. Often 20-25%.