SPACE: THE FINAL FRONTIER

[Gregadd]

Karen
I don't care how good your tuna net id your gonna trap some dolphins.
are ypu suggesting noise contributes to ambience?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

as a follow up to my previous post, i think when we speak of "space" in a recording, or a system's ability to get it all, and get all of it as right as possible, we see the "we are there" and "they are here" sort of alternate presentations. some systems can do one better than the other i think. or tend to pull the presentation toward one direction. they might get the focus and holographic reach out and touch it of "they are here" but not quite the space and scale of the venue to pull off "you are there". or the reverse too. and, of course, many recordings have elements of both, maybe even while the music is very, very complex and dynamic.

more than a few systems are tuned and equipped with gear for a specific type presentation. a fully valid approach.

personally; what i want is my presentation to be recording dependant and take things are far as they can either way. do both the intimate and the large scale. when i got in my brand new large room 18 years ago, it could do big space right off the bat. but it took me 10 years of futzing, to surpass the previous small scale intimacy of my previous compact room. even my seating position had to change dramatically (over 10 years) from a far field position to a now, near field, position, to be able to deliver everything on the recording in my large room.

getting 100% of the space right in every recording is a big effort. but when you can do it you get a level of involvement and immersion than makes it worth it. and exploring various types of music the system does not become the restriction.

 

[wil]

No offense but this is baloney. Close your eyes in the concert hall.



Absence of dirt? Are you just making things up? Typically a black background is attributed to noise reducing power cords, cables and power conditioners that are designed to filter electricity in the megahertz/gigahertz region. The result is often an unatural void that separates musicians from one another - which to some can be an entertaining effect - in a way you will not hear in the concert hall.

If a power conditioner, or whatever one does to eliminate electrical noise in the system, is effective, it will reveal the ambiance of the recording space wether concert hall or studio. Some studio spaces are treated to give an almost ambiance-fee sonic palette which might come across as a "black" background, others have a lot more room ambiance. If a live venue recording sounds like it has a black background, that would be signs of a problem!

 

[Elliot G.]

personally i never hear these 'black' backgrounds i read others talk about. having a low noise floor both in your signal path and room isolation wise, allows the ambience and 'hall' of the recording to be fully lit and present when it's captured on a recording. the lower the noise, the farther into the corners of the venue you can hear. this is one of those reasons i preferred my darTZeel 458's amps over the Lamm's and VAC's; i heard farther into the venue with the reduced noise floor. a big difference maker in translating the scale and space of the recording along with extreme deep bass extension and amplifier headroom. ease and authority = the illusion of real space.

as far as hearing the pinpoint outlines of performers that is not at all how i would describe what i hear on better recordings. what i hear is real people, or real instruments with width and depth; i sense bodies moving and a physical presence. instruments have substance. you get a sense of a mouth moving, a chest being a part of the vocals, the instrument moving, the size of the piano, the reality of the drum kit. degrees of these things can separate the good from the great. if this 'illusion' is a 'hifi' artifact, give me more of that stuff. sure, sometimes it's not that way and still a fine involving recording, that sort of 'live' sound is not on every recording. i also think tonal density and timbral and textural complexity, along with the delicate 'action' that gets naturally presented is where the nuanced 'life-like' feeling comes through. the delicacy if you will.

to pull off the holographic show, the recording and system have to have the energy and accuracy to not be stressed by the musical demands. the room and ancillaries have to be well sorted out. you need the detail and the PRAT to provide the suspension of disbelief potential of each recording.

I believe this is another "audiophile" term Black backgrounds like depth they are terms which mean nothing when it comes to the music. I believe that a lot of this comes from systems that are not properly orientated. What do I mean by this? Simple, if your speakers are not placed proeperly in your room and you are not controlling the acoustics sufficiently you will never "see/hear" into the recordings. Live music which I listen to often as well as live recordings should/can/sometimes will show you the acoustic space of the performance. These are naturally created, they can be induced by recording techniques but that is not what I am referring too. There is no black background in a live performance there is only the sound of the instruments, singers and the space.
I have said before the Industry does a terrible job debunking the code so that consumers understand what the heck they are talking about. I also think that the reviewers, many with good intent, use the words because they are expected too and thay trying to describe things we hear is lets face it difficult to express.
The illusion, yes the illusion that you are in the space, and you "seeing" the performance is what I believe we are after. This in some recordings is much more plausible and possible than in others. IMO you will never get there if you don't get the position of the speakers in your room and the placement of your seating position correct. This is not an equipment issue it is a set up issue. I read lots of comments about shows for example and many times small room with smaller speakers are what many get really enthused about and to me this makes perfect sense since the set up of these is much easier and works well in a small space. The larger and the more complicated the speaker system, the more critical and time consuming the set up.
Black Background.....bah humbug!

 

[Gregadd]

If you don't like "black backgroind" try this. If there is no music there should be silemce. Each note not should emrge from silence and return upon decay.
IIRC the LAMM can achieve "silence" but it requires negative feedback.
When man solves a problem he creates another one.

 

[PeterA]

Ideally, if the system's noise level is low enough, I think whether or not one hears "silence" when the music stops, or between and around the notes, should be more dependent on the particular recording than it is on the system and the set up. Some recordings have so much ambient information on them that when played on a high resolution system, one never hears silence except when the track is over.

Years ago I was in the Vienna Opera house attending a rehearsal without an audience, and when the conductor interrupted the musicians and they stopped singing and playing, the hall did not suddenly become silent. There remained an audible atmosphere even when the music stopped, and it was certainly there between the notes when the music was playing. There was an energy in the air and around the space. It is hard to describe, but I've heard this on some live recordings played on the best systems, even when the music stopped.

If the goal is low noise from gear or the system, why not just call it that. Why call it "black background"? I think there is a distinction. Some systems do present a black background where there is silence between the notes and when the music stops. There is a distinct lack or absence of ambient information. It is different from a low noise floor which enables one to hear more, not less. If a note startles, perhaps it is because there is a sudden burst of energy, not a black background or backdrop against which it emerges. Or the system simply does a really good job of distinguishing the sound of the new note and the context from which it emerges.

 

[Elliot G.]

I agree there is no silence the space and room is always there , it doesn't go away, the decay of the music and the room ambience are incredibly important to the you are there feeling that can be achieved on many recordings. People talk about the sound of a hall, the change when they did Carnegie etc. Maybe a studio recording can have a silent background however this is something that we don't know and many popular recordings are a puzzle of different studio's, mic's, consoles etc that are patched together with electronic gizmo's. These may sound nice but its just that it sounds nice so enjoy it but its not something we will hear anywhere but on a stereo/hifi system/car stereo/headphones etc.

 

[Gregadd]

Sure noise caniginTed from can be originated from the source. I said each note and its'decay.
Of course the room can also contribute

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Ideally, if the system's noise level is low enough, I think whether or not one hears "silence" when the music stops, or between and around the notes, should be more dependent on the particular recording than it is on the system and the set up. Some recordings have so much ambient information on them that when played on a high resolution system, one never hears silence except when the track is over.

Years ago I was in the Vienna Opera house attending a rehearsal without an audience, and when the conductor interrupted the musicians and they stopped singing and playing, the hall did not suddenly become silent. There remained an audible atmosphere even when the music stopped, and it was certainly there between the notes when the music was playing. There was an energy in the air and around the space. It is hard to describe, but I've heard this on some live recordings played on the best systems, even when the music stopped.

If the goal is low noise from gear or the system, why not just call it that. Why call it "black background"? I think there is a distinction. Some systems do present a black background where there is silence between the notes and when the music stops. There is a distinct lack or absence of ambient information. It is different from a low noise floor which enables one to hear more, not less. If a note startles, perhaps it is because there is a sudden burst of energy, not a black background or backdrop against which it emerges. Or the system simply does a really good job of distinguishing the sound of the new note and the context from which it emerges.

if we observe an anechoic chamber, this is where you might get the absence of any background ambient bed. some studio's have semi-anechoic booths for vocals. and some over-damped rooms or recording venues might reveal that phenomena. such as how a clothes closet sounds with the door closed.

when you walk into a room and speak, it's mostly easy to hear whether there is a tonal and dynamic balance to the room. then speak loud, or play loud music. does the balance remain? this is important. keep the energy in the room, but make sure it's balanced. can the music decay properly all the way? without hashy slap echo.

 

[Gregadd]

My dealer used to clap his hands.

 

[Elliot G.]

My dealer used to clap his hanfs.

Clapping your hands as you walk from one side to the other can help you identify slap echo and where you will need some acoustic treatment

 

[the sound of Tao]

When did we start throwing DIRT so freely around here

Let’s hope DIRT (Detrimental Indirect Resonant Traces) doesn’t get into the finals of the new sonic acronym of the year awards… OMG I can’t keep up

 

[Jim Smith]

Space - in my experience - not suggested as some iron-clad fact - is best described and adjusted for when it is thought of and referred to as Presence.

Of course there are many types of Presence -

Intimate in-room Presence

In-room Presence

Studio Presence

Recital Hall Presence

Jazz or Blues Club Presence

Concert Hall Presence,

Live outdoor concert presence, and more.

 

[PeterA]

Space - in my experience - not suggested as some iron-clad fact - is best described and adjusted for when it is thought of and referred to as Presence.

Of course there are many types of Presence -

Intimate in-room Presence

In-room Presence

Studio Presence

Recital Hall Presence

Jazz or Blues Club Presence

Concert Hall Presence,

Live outdoor concert presence, and more.

Hello Jim,

How do you distinguish between the sense that you are in the presence of a musician or a group of musicians and the character or atmosphere of the space in which they are performing?

 

[LL21]

You have a real gift in the manner in which you write Karen. I look forward to every month's next installment.

More than +1...to paraphrase Buzz Lightyear..."+ infinity and beyond". An excellent opening to a very engaging and informative thread...looking forward to reading more.

 

[microstrip]

No offense but this is baloney. Close your eyes in the concert hall.

No offense, your answer is childish. Baloney is oversimplifying the meaning of perception and ignoring the main argument I wrote. Auditory memory is linked to visual - many experiments were carried on this subject. The subject becomes particularly important because of the physical limitations of stereo localization in stereo some people systematically want to ignore.

Absence of dirt? Are you just making things up? Typically a black background is attributed to noise reducing power cords, cables and power conditioners that are designed to filter electricity in the megahertz/gigahertz region. The result is often an unatural void that separates musicians from one another - which to some can be an entertaining effect - in a way you will not hear in the concert hall.

No, black background is attributed to global system properties and lack of artifacts. Reducing noise in power can help, yes. Curious that you seem critical to the use of power filters, except to those included in the Lamm equipment we both appreciate - as far as I see in their specification, they also filter electricity in the megahertz/gigahertz region.

As far as I see it, mains power is still mainly a voodoo subject in stereo reproduction - many theories, plenty of nice speculative words, but no one has written any firm idea on any correlation between the objective and the subjective. But surely they make a difference.

 

[microstrip]

I confess - I have never really understood the whole PRAT thing as some key characteristic useful for describing the sound of a stereo, much less the sound of live music, much less as something whose presence or absence is seen as positive or negative. I do understand timing and rhythm, (the latter a function of the former - patterned timing), but pace - isn't pace simply the rate at which something happens? I hear music, not its rate. He who sets the pace is the conductor or leader. I can understand a musician or even an entire section failing to follow the conductor who will then correct them. But as an inherent characteristic of reproduction ....? People who talk about prat seem compelled to use the word 'swing' whenever they do. Yes, I can tap my foot in time with foot taping music, not so easy with Stravinsky.

If you never understood it, please research it and understand what people that we can agree or disagree with meant with with. IMHO condescendence was never a proper way of debating a subject.

-----------------------------------------

Space? It is apt, Karen, that you describe it as the 'final frontier'. Frontiers are at the edge of civilization otherwise just wilderness. Civilization is tonality/timbre, dynamics and timing. (Timing is a fundamental, not to be left out.) Absent those, space is a non-sequitar. As I say, there are no psychoacoustics in the score. True. Nonetheless every live performance takes place in a context that contributes to it and when the context goes missing the performance is not natural. is not what it is.

Space, the word is fine - the expanse in which musical events are located. Ambiance is another fine word - slightly different from space, it suggestive of a mood, a quality of the environment, an atmosphere. I tend to use Context, similar to both while including the physical, a concert hall, a stone nave or narthex, a small club with round tables and a stage. All of these work and relate to one another.

Psychoacoustics is used by some audiophiles in a way that leans on the visual -- for the sighted perhaps our strongest sense with more words that we can put to use in describing sound. Thus we get dimensionality which is usually taken as 3-dimensionality; the form of the space, sometimes the sense of objects - people and instruments within it. In the past I have written of bas relief, the suggestion of objects. But now I am unsure of dimensionality beyond a sense of context: back and side walls.

I am unsure of a sense of dimensional musicians populating space - I'm thinking it is a product of my mind, not some raw data or thing I am hearing. If I close my eyes in the concert hall I hear music but have no inner sight or non-sighted manifestation of dimensional objects - this I belive is one area where the synthesist and naturalist differ. When I hear the wumpf of a bass drum on a recording sometimes I can tell if it is a large or regular size drum, but I don't see a bass drum or drummer in my mind. Of course one might argue that all psychoacoustics are a mental product, an interpretation caused by sound and based on prior experience, often visual.

A sense of soundstage depth and width is more psychoacoustic phenomenon. I don't think it is visual though we may parse it that way. Our ability to locate the source, direction, and distance of sound is an ancient skill, autonomic if you will inasmuch as we cannot avoid this perception. It is a product of sound in space in context - the timing of reflections give us cues and those sonic reflections are indeed real sounds captured hopefully by recording. Without reflection we may still sense direction, but we gauge amplitude for distance. A sound behind you in an open field - how far away is it?

Unlike tonality, dynamics and timing, psychoacoustics are not, at least for me, the sine qua non of enjoyment -- I can enjoy a performance with lessened such effects. And I can enjoy a performance when psycho-acoustics are manufactured or manipulated post recording. Space, ambiance, context are important to a natural sounding, believable reproduction when they are believable, when their source is on the recording.

Nice to know you are aware of the importance of psychoacoustics in sound reproduction. But IMHO we can't use to word as a banner to avoid any debate on the fundamental aspects of space and localization in stereo, our hearing capabilities and the technical limitations of stereo.

 

[LL21]

... There remained an audible atmosphere even when the music stopped, and it was certainly there between the notes when the music was playing. There was an energy in the air and around the space. It is hard to describe, but I've heard this on some live recordings played on the best systems, even when the music stopped....

Agreed. Some of the tracks that come to mind which capture what I think you are describing are albums recorded in jazz clubs or certain live symphonies...when the music has stopped you are still there...it is a sense of venue...particularly atmospheric with the sub. And the minute the recording stops even when the CD is still playing for a few more silent seconds...it is super-jarring, because in a snap, you have left Narnia and are instantly back in your living room. You have to wait that extra 3 seconds before the next track begins to get 'back to Narnia'.

 

[microstrip]

(...) If the goal is low noise from gear or the system, why not just call it that. Why call it "black background"?

Because by black background people refer to another thing, not just to low objective noise. People in this forum, audio writers and many others have explained clearly why they agree or disagree with it, what they mean with it. Why obsessing in imposing a new terminology that relies mainly only on the negation of the old one?

I think there is a distinction. Some systems do present a black background where there is silence between the notes and when the music stops. There is a distinct lack or absence of ambient information. It is different from a low noise floor which enables one to hear more, not less. If a note startles, perhaps it is because there is a sudden burst of energy, not a black background or backdrop against which it emerges. Or the system simply does a really good job of distinguishing the sound of the new note and the context from which it emerges.

On the contrary - people refer that black background increases ambient information, it is why they like it. Sad to see you now added a new idea "backdrop" to obscure the proper use of the word. "Black background" was created to avoid confusion with signal to noise ratio and means something else.

As many others, I see the limitations of the current audio glossary to express the attributes of the current high subjective resolution gear and would be very happy to learn about a new expanded lexicon that could help audiophiles to correlate our words with our enjoyment of systems. But if this new lexicon must forcefully include people taking lessons on music and going to concerts, as well as overwriting most of the old audio glossary, I think we are doing a poor service to the hobby. All IMHO, YMMV.

 

[Jim Smith]

Hello Jim,

How do you distinguish between the sense that you are in the presence of a musician or a group of musicians and the character or atmosphere of the space in which they are performing?

Hi Peter,

If I can tell the difference between a live performer in the room vs. one in a hall or club, which I think anyone can, then I can easily tell the difference with reproduced Presence in a properly configured system/room...

IIRC, we brIefly touched on Dynamics, Presence & Tone at dinner a few years ago....