Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

I had never heard of these. Thank you for the suggestion.

The fact that this company has a laboratory assessment of the efficacy of its product is very impressive.
 
List of amps I should try on the Pendragon ribbon panels:

Atma-Sphere MA-2 (or MA-3 Ralph?)
Berning 211/845
Berning Quadrature
NAT Magma New SE
Vitus

I am curious to compare 350w of VTL push-pull in triode mode to high-power SET to high-power OTL. But OTL will not work for me, no matter how transparent it sounds, if it sounds lean or lacking in some modicum of natural tube "warmth."
 
List of amps I should try on the Pendragon ribbon panels:

Atma-Sphere MA-2 (or MA-3 Ralph?)
Berning 211/845
Berning Quadrature
NAT Magma New SE
Vitus

I am curious to compare 350w of VTL push-pull in triode mode to high-power SET to high-power OTL.

Appears to be a great list! :cool:
Would VAC be appropriate for your comparison :confused:
 
It sure would be appropriate, but if I'm going to go with high-power push-pull I will stay with the VTLs.
 
List of amps I should try on the Pendragon ribbon panels:

Atma-Sphere MA-2 (or MA-3 Ralph?)
Berning 211/845
Berning Quadrature
NAT Magma New SE
Vitus

I am curious to compare 350w of VTL push-pull in triode mode to high-power SET to high-power OTL. But OTL will not work for me, no matter how transparent it sounds, if it sounds lean or lacking in some modicum of natural tube "warmth."

Apologies if someone already asked and I forgot - can we know why are you discarding the Gryphon amplifiers?
 
I naturally prefer tube amps. The consensus seems to be that the Vitus may be the best "gateway" amp for a tube person.
 
I naturally prefer tube amps. The consensus seems to be that the Vitus may be the best "gateway" amp for a tube person.

Not sure who forms this consensus but I haven't heard anything in common between Vitus or any other ss and better tube electronics. And it's not just the amplifiers that sound different but also preamps and phono stages have a very different nature. Ultimately your speakers will dictate your compromises...

david
 
Some ruminations on tube amplifiers . . .

1) In my opinion Kedar recently has experienced something of an epiphany regarding OTL amplifiers. (I am sure Kedar will have some comment critical of my summary description here, and of the order in which I suggest his observations have occurred and his thinking has evolved, and he is more than welcome to comment to correct, elaborate or refine.) The common denominator connecting his enjoyment of the Tenor OTL 75w and the Berning 211/845 and the Berning Quadrature Z is the absence of an output transformer. (Yes, I know we do not like components in a vacuum; we like them in a system context with proper matching of amp to speaker, and pre-amp to amp, etc., but I am generalizing here for convenience.)

Kedar wrote recently:

The Berning Quads belong to the Spectral/Boulder sound of clean, transparent, very fast amps, with a high degree of linearity and extension, but with more valve harmonics yet not the muddiness of valves. The Bernings were doing more resolution on chorals, on Mendelssohn’s Elijah (complex tutti), and Scheherazade, and the timbre on Bruch’s violin was better due to the higher end extension. The Vitus was doing a more cohesive full bodied tone that especially favored piano and the chest during the vocals. While, unlike valves, Vitus was not rolling off the violin…I would say that the Berning was extending it more.​

Kedar originally enjoyed NAT amps and KR amps and Luxman and others. He also respects Spectral and Boulder for their transparent, extended, "clean," uncolored and non-adulterating sound. He very much likes Vitus, and he thinks that Vitus could be the amplifier which pushes me over to the solid-state side of the tube to solid-state border.

Putting solid-state amps aside, I interpret Kedar's recent auditions of OTL amps to cause him to re-visit his understandings of non-OTL amps he likes. I believe his recent thinking after experiencing OTLs suggests that he now finds VTL and c-j to be a bit colored and thick in the upper bass/lower midrange and not as transparent as first thought, and that he now finds even the NATs and KRs to be less transparent and neutral than originally thought -- now that OTLs represent his new benchmark in tube transparency and neutrality.

2) Mike L reported on the Berning 211/845 thread significant experience with Atma-Sphere amps. Mike L wrote:

i still like any Atma-Sphere amplifier......they do nothing wrong and are solid great sounding amps, and the Tenor's had their design issues. but in direct comparison the Atma-Sphere was relatively dry sounding and lacked the unique 'sparkle' and fire and involvement of the mid-range of the Tenor (the Tenor's were never colored or dark, just sweet and alive). OTOH the MA2's and their more current versions are much more flexible with various speakers.

3) I like and could happily live with many different SET and push-pull tube amps. To me modern tube amps are just different flavors of wonderful. I am not put off by a little extra warmth or "color" or "thickness" in the midrange or upper bass. I am just not inclined to be critical if the sound is on the warm side of the line.

However, I am extremely critical if I hear any brightness or edginess or artificial sibilance or any mechanical type of sound or "dryness."

4) So is the midrange "beauty" and warmth of an SET just pleasant-sounding even-order harmonic distortion, which an OTL is able to avoid? Or if an audiophile wants that "musical" midrange offered by SETs how much transparency is that audiophile giving up versus an OTL in order to retain that desired SET midrange?

5) For myself, I want the midrange beauty offered by SETs over the slightly less musical midrange offered by push-pull designs. But I want higher power than SETs can offer. So I consider the NAT Magma New SE (170 watt SET).

But how much transparency am I giving up by using an output transformer? But then Ralph's designs, while Class A, are, push-pull designs. So am I forfeiting some of the SET midrange magic on that design decision? But am I making up for it with the headroom offered by 220 watts from the MA-2?

Only by comparing the MA-2 to the NAT Magma New SE will I know whether to compromise on the transparency of the OTL to capture the SET midrange magic, or whether to compromise on the SET midrange magic to achieve the greatest transparency and "you are there" effect of the OTL.
 
Hi Ron, thanks that is in most cases nicely summed up, a few clarifications.
1. I think SETs are highly limited speaker wise - can be used only on very few.
2. I don't have sufficient experience with all SETs to comment as this has to be done by speaker.
3. OTLs - Tenor 75 excited me, the Berning is very different from the Tenor. And Dobbins of Kodo Beat liked the Berning for many years after which he replaced it with VAC iq200.
4. Yes I am not a fan of PP tube big power amps, I feel too much haze, muddiness, and inability to separate out on orchestral. They do good air, midrange, and harmonics, have good buy/sell value. I don't know the VAC

5. My main message is to demo various topologies and not restrict yourself to one on principle. You already have a PP, so a class A monster, Kronzilla, Berning Quads audition will do for a start.
 
I think a 6-ohm speaker like yours isn't a particularly good match for OTL. It usually means there is quite a section of the frequency curve where the speaker is 4ohms. I'll be curious how your demo goes. (fwiw, i don't think you will like Atmas from your stated preferences)
 
Some ruminations on tube amplifiers . . . (...)

Ron,

The only common thing between the Atma-sphere (or Tenor) and the Berning is that both sound excellent and use tubes, although in very different ways. Associating them in terms of topology is like saying a flying helicopter is similar to a flying jet plane because both are wheelless. The Berning is a complex amplifier that uses output transformers that operate outside the audio band. It is why David Berning calls them ZOTL (Zero hysteresis Transformer-Less) not OTLs, avoiding confusion with the classical OTL topology. IMHO the Bernings deserve to be considered as a revolutionary amplifier, different from any other tube amplifiers, unless you listen to them in your system you will never know how they sound.

The crossover of your bass towers happens at 200 Hz - it is probably why Rasmussen uses a 1000W class A/B amplifier in it, and not the usual class D used with much lower crossover frequencies. This means that core saturation will not be an issue to you, but that your future amplifier should be a good match for the towers.

Considering your speakers have a few supertweeters I thing that having an impedance measurement is mandatory before looking for an OTL or SE - possibly it is being run in parallel with the ribbon as "the ribbon rolls off naturally with no lowpass filter section in the signal path" and the impedance can decrease a lot at the high frequencies.
 
I think a 6-ohm speaker like yours isn't a particularly good match for OTL. It usually means there is quite a section of the frequency curve where the speaker is 4ohms. I'll be curious how your demo goes. (fwiw, i don't think you will like Atmas from your stated preferences)

Agreed, but he can try the Berning Quads, which is not this regular OTL topology.
 
I think a 6-ohm speaker like yours isn't a particularly good match for OTL. It usually means there is quite a section of the frequency curve where the speaker is 4ohms. I'll be curious how your demo goes. (fwiw, i don't think you will like Atmas from your stated preferences)

The MA-2s have twenty output tubes (forty triodes) per amplifier. 6-4 ohm is not a problem for them if the speaker is reasonably efficient.
 
Ron,
The crossover of your bass towers happens at 200 Hz - it is probably why Rasmussen uses a 1000W class A/B amplifier in it, and not the usual class D used with much lower crossover frequencies. This means that core saturation will not be an issue to you, but that your future amplifier should be a good match for the towers.

You hit the nail squarely on the head Francisco! IME even fully integrating SS/Digital subs at much lower frequencies with tube driven mains is already problematic and depending how particular one is unacceptable, I would say that at frequencies as high as 200hz it's impossible. Yes one can always color the sound with cables to blend better but that defeats the purpose of spending this kind of money. I know Ron doesn't want to hear this but with these speakers he's locked in to solid state amplification.

Considering your speakers have a few supertweeters I thing that having an impedance measurement is mandatory before looking for an OTL or SE - possibly it is being run in parallel with the ribbon as "the ribbon rolls off naturally with no lowpass filter section in the signal path" and the impedance can decrease a lot at the high frequencies.

Further support for need of ss electronics with these speakers!

david
 
You hit the nail squarely on the head Francisco! IME even fully integrating SS/Digital subs at much lower frequencies with tube driven mains is already problematic and depending how particular one is unacceptable, I would say that at frequencies as high as 200hz it's impossible. Yes one can always color the sound with cables to blend better but that defeats the purpose of spending this kind of money. I know Ron doesn't want to hear this but with these speakers he's locked in to solid state amplification.


Further support for need of ss electronics with these speakers!

david

sigh, tubeless in SOCAL; however, not so bad Ron, you still have STUDER!! :eek:
 
IMO that's a good thing. There are many good SS amps to choose from and make your speakers sing. You have a great tubed phono and get a good tubed pre. The VTL will work find in driving SS amps.
 
Thank you for your thoughts, gentlemen. We will see.

I am fine with a little high frequency roll-off.
 
I an sure I would like the way they sound. But the blow-up risk is too high for me.
 

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