Ron’s New System

[Elliot G.]

It is on Ron

Yes it’s all Ron’s fault bring out the pitchforks and the tiki torches

 

[microstrip]

I see. Yes, for me resolution is more than just detail or pixel count. It is all the information from the recording that one hears from his system that enables him to have insight to the performance.

Yes.

To me adding the qualifier “natural” simply means that the resolution or information is presented in a way that reminds me of the experience of listening to a live performance.

Ok. Everyone says the same. But some people listen with open eyes and want something that reminds them of the whole experience, live ambiance included, not just the sound.

Some systems or components make ALL presentations sound the same or like you are up on stage inches or feet from the instrument for example. This is too much detail and not like the experience of live music. The perspective is wrong.

You are focusing on extreme cases that are not representative of the systems of WBF members.

Scale, impact, weight, timber, details - they must all be convincing and in the right proportion to each other. To me, that is natural resolution.

Ok, you put the proper amount of scale, impact, weight, timber, details in a mixer and you get "natural" resolution.

Curious that you forgot localization and soundstage. Resolution can be part of it.

When it is right, we know it and we go straight to the music and do not “hear” the system. The more natural the information on the recording is presented to us by our systems, the less we consciously analyze what we hear, and the more it becomes about the music.

Yes, marketing literature claims it since long. All systems should be "natural". Even the gramophone theater demos sounded "natural" , crowds could not separate reproductions from reality. "Natural" is an excellent way of saying ambiguous nice non-committal things about sound reproduction. Just music, nothing else ...

 

[PeterA]

And yet you constantly champion transducers that imho commit a number of the sins of which you speak , in particular scale of the performer , they were of course designed in the main part to project such an audio signal into a large space Viz a theatre , I am of course referring to Karmeli’s Bioner theatre transducers .

And yet his system presents scale and proportion very convincingly in his room. Just read the five or so direct reports from WBF members who have heard his Bionors. Nothing like the giant wall of sound with huge images that I have heard from some systems. The sense of presence is very natural from DDK’s system.

 

[Elliot G.]

Yes.


Ok. Everyone says the same. But some people listen with open eyes and want something that reminds them of the whole experience, live ambiance included, not just the sound.



You are focusing on extreme cases that are not representative of the systems of WBF members.



Ok, you put the proper amount of scale, impact, weight, timber, details in a mixer and you get "natural" resolution.

Curious that you forgot localization and soundstage. Resolution can be part of it.



Yes, marketing literature claims it since long. All systems should be "natural". Even the gramophone theater demos sounded "natural" , crowds could not separate reproductions from reality. "Natural" is an excellent way of saying ambiguous nice non-committal things about sound reproduction. Just music, nothing else ...

Wow we almost agree on something Micro
“It’s a beautiful morning
I think I’ll go outside for a while and just smile”

 

[PeterA]

While I agree with some of what you said your definitions and word choices describing it don’t .
I find the term natural or musical
Meaningless since they mean something different to everyone and they have become audiophile code. We can add organic to that as well.

Elliot, what do you mean by “audiophile code”? I very rarely see “organic” used, and natural and musical have clear but different meanings to me.

 

[morricab]

Elliot, what do you mean by “audiophile code”? I very rarely see “organic” used, and natural and musical have clear but different meanings to me.

My hifi is Bio…

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Don’t you all have some nice music to listen too?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Don’t you all have some nice music to listen too?

It seems like the TT / record ( thread ) is in a loop / repeat again
Its a case of lifting the needle and move on .

As usual i would advice the 223 from fm acoustics which lets you focus on the music instead of the cracks.

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot, what do you mean by “audiophile code”? I very rarely see “organic” used, and natural and musical have clear but different meanings to me.

Please explain the different meanings.

 

[bonzo75]

Don’t you all have some nice music to listen too?

they are probably not in their car right now as they are messaging. Most people here listen to music on car radios or boom boxes.

 

[Atmasphere]

I see no reason to pseudo-balance natively single-ended amplifiers.

That's good because pseudo-balance doesn't exist; its meaningless. Its either single-ended or balanced, never both. That is one reason to use transformers, since single-ended connections are mutually incompatible with balanced connections.

Pseudo-balancing is using a balancing or unbalancing transformer in a natively single-ended circuit.

Actually you are using the transformer to convert from one to the other, which transformers do quite well (while adding some distortion via hysteresis).

How did you conclude that?
(I may have missed it.)

Distortion can be embedded in the noise floor due to harmonic bifurcation caused by feedback. There can be intermodulations (inharmonic distortion) that can occur through interactions with power supply and ground loops. The ear perceives this as a hiss, as the noise floor.

If the feedback is properly applied this type of noise is reduced.

There is no objective definition of resolution for audio reproduction.

There is theory... which functions as a definition for me, anyway. A high definition system will have low distortion, and what distortion it does have will be innocuous. Distortion obscures detail and detail is needed to have high resolution. I seriously doubt there is concurrence on this matter though.

When it is right, we know it and we go straight to the music and do not “hear” the system.

Music is normally processed in the limbic portions of the brain. If something is wrong there is a tipping point where music processing is transferred to the cerebral cortex, at which point a lot of the emotional impact can be lost. If the designer knows what he's doing, his goal is the keep music processing in the limbic system.

 

[marty]

Elliot, what do you mean by “audiophile code”? I very rarely see “organic” used, and natural and musical have clear but different meanings to me.

Too easy.....

 

[Argonaut]

Don’t you all have some nice music to listen too?

Not presently Christensen … However I am sipping a couple of fingers of Glenlivet Nadurra whilst watching dragonflies hunt flies hatching over my portion of chalk stream … as the sun begins to set

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Not presently Christian … However I am sipping a couple of fingers of Glenlivet Nadurra whilst watching dragonflies hunt flies hatching over my portion of chalk stream … as the sun begins to set

I’m Leif

 

[Argonaut]

I’m Leif

I’m Spartacus , I’m on my fourth glass now Leif … so you are all one

 

[Argonaut]

And yet his system presents scale and proportion very convincingly in his room. Just read the five or so direct reports from WBF members who have heard his Bionors. Nothing like the giant wall of sound with huge images that I have heard from some systems. The sense of presence is very natural from DDK’s system.

No … No they do not , They are a transducer designed to amplify and project an audio signal into a theatre sized auditorium … ergo they do produce a wall of sound with huge images , Curiously enough that is one of their sonic traits that I quite enjoy ! They are also coloured and harmonically and texturally dense … which again can be quite addictive , however they are coloured and project a signal that is their own interpretation of the recording .

 

[Holmz]

…
Distortion can be embedded in the noise floor due to harmonic bifurcation caused by feedback. There can be intermodulations (inharmonic distortion) that can occur through interactions with power supply and ground loops. The ear perceives this as a hiss, as the noise floor.
…

Thanks Ralph, but the question I was alluding to…
Is what made jbrrp1 believe the bolded part.

…. There's a lot more to "noise floor" than quieter; there's importantly lower distortion, which hits very squarely in the areas you highlight as important. Just an FYI.

Or maybe… are you are saying that ^that^ is true because SETs do not have feedback, so they cannot have the “harmonic bifurcation”?

 

[Folsom]

You mean 50ft max ( = "shorter"), but what for ? For speaker cables, or...RCA interconnects ?!
(50ft = 15.2 m !)

RCA.

Everyone here lives on paranoia but no one lives on top of a news organization or radio station.

This all seemed to start with needing to make a choice when neither mattered, and choosing one that technically could be better. That has turned into everyone justifying what they do under the assumption it has benefits but no one has ever verified it by trying both. Measurements show that even the 50ft recommendation is just a good idea but not necessarily something represented with auditory differences.

I applaud Ron for breaking free from living in fear like most audiophiles.

What are you calling "native pseudo balancing"? IMO such thing does not exist - it is a marketing term for using improper connectors or wiring.

You must be joking. Audiophile equipment is utterly notorious for not using true balanced connections or even following pin1 rule. Pseudo might be a poor description but I'm sure he got to it via the fact they're using the same cables so it looks or feels like balanced when it simply isn't.

 

[Atmasphere]

Thanks Ralph, but the question I was alluding to…
Is what made jbrrp1 believe the bolded part.


Or maybe… are you are saying that ^that^ is true because SETs do not have feedback, so they cannot have the “harmonic bifurcation”?

This is very close. Zero feedback circuits do not have a noise floor of nearly so much inharmonic information. It is unavoidable though since intermodulation is a function of the non-linearity of the circuit so noise in the power supply or ground is likely to intermodulate and be part of the noise floor. So right here you can see how important it is to get the power supply right and in particular, get the internal grounding scheme right.

You must be joking. Audiophile equipment is utterly notorious for not using true balanced connections or even following pin1 rule. Pseudo might be a poor description but I'm sure he got to it via the fact they're using the same cables so it looks or feels like balanced when it simply isn't.

While this is very true, its still important to not engage with fictitious concepts or terms as they have a way of spreading very quickly.

If people wonder why I engage in audio forums while most manufacturers avoid them, correcting misinformation is one of my reasons. An example of misinformation is 'LPs have less resolution near the inner grooves'. I accepted that as fact until I rebuilt my Scully lathe and actually started cutting LPs. I discovered that the inner grooves are easily capable of 30KHz playback; IOW no loss of resolution at all. So that particular argument the digiphiles make was a myth. I think it came from studies made in the early 1960s prior to when decent styli become commonplace; IOW it was an early playback issue and never a record issue.

 

[microstrip]

.

(...) You must be joking. Audiophile equipment is utterly notorious for not using true balanced connections or even following pin1 rule. Pseudo might be a poor description but I'm sure he got to it via the fact they're using the same cables so it looks or feels like balanced when it simply isn't.

As I said, pseudo was not just a poor description, it was an misleading appropriation of a technical expression with a defined meaning. Ron acknowledged and the issue was properly addressed. I suggest you read threads more carefully before jumping in.