Ron’s New System

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Ron. It sounds like you found the devices effective in your old system but now your system is different so I presume the devices are off and you no longer use them. Is that correct?

basically correct

I still have two of them on in the breakfast nook because that breakfast nook acoustically is unhelpful and it probably accumulates bass.

I have no doubt the AVAAs have efficacy. Pro audio products actually have to work, otherwise people don't buy them.

 

[Atmasphere]

PSI AVAAs have efficacy, Ralph. It is a pro audio product -- not a baffle us with bul%sh*t / I cannot tell you how it works / secret proprietary quantum woo-woo technology high-end audio product at 5X the price.

I know how they work as I had the idea of an active bass trap myself. Using subs to kill standing waves is far more effective nor is doing so woo-woo

I've worked with pro audio gear all my adult life as I've had a studio that long too.

Dr Floyd Toole developed the Distributed Bass Array concept which is what we're talking about to kill standing waves. Standing waves can manifest as a bass null or a bass peak ('room mode' as you put it). A peak is when the standing wave reinforces the existing bass note; a null is when it cancels.

Your speakers have rear-firing information and that information has bass energy which is not in phase with the front output after bouncing off the wall behind the speakers. That makes them less prone to standing wave problems (which occur in any room with regular dimensions and even some that don't) but does not eliminate the problem. It does make it a bit easier to deal with.

 

[Holmz]

I know how they work as I had the idea of an active bass trap myself. Using subs to kill standing waves is far more effective nor is doing so woo-woo

I've worked with pro audio gear all my adult life as I've had a studio that long too.

Dr Floyd Toole developed the Distributed Bass Array concept which is what we're talking about to kill standing waves. Standing waves can manifest as a bass null or a bass peak ('room mode' as you put it). A peak is when the standing wave reinforces the existing bass note; a null is when it cancels.

Your speakers have rear-firing information and that information has bass energy which is not in phase with the front output after bouncing off the wall behind the speakers. That makes them less prone to standing wave problems (which occur in any room with regular dimensions and even some that don't) but does not eliminate the problem. It does make it a bit easier to deal with.

I’m not sure that that is 100% Ralph.

Ideally one kills waves passively, and then tries to kill what is remaining actively.
(which may be more “at the same time” than a sequential set of steps.)

Just adding more subs may fill in nulls, but of one wants transient response, then they want to remove energy from the room and not add it.
But the only way to decrease the decay time, is to remove the energy.

 

[Atmasphere]

I’m not sure that that is 100% Ralph.

Ideally one kills waves passively, and then tries to kill what is remaining actively.
(which may be more “at the same time” than a sequential set of steps.)

Just adding more subs may fill in nulls, but of one wants transient response, then they want to remove energy from the room and not add it.
But the only way to decrease the decay time, is to remove the energy.

Actually its the other way 'round when it comes to bass. Subs will do about 95% of what needs to be done; traps and DSP can do the remaining 5%. This is because if there is a cancellation (null), no amount of amplifier power can overcome the bass null it since its being cancelled.

The problem usually isn't a bass boom (easy if it is) but a bass cancellation. For traps to really deal with that they must move about the room as the wavelength of the bass note changes; obviously impractical.

By adding subs the goal is not more bass. Its to break up standing waves and that does not take a lot of energy. Standing waves can be (as in Ron's earlier case) responsible for quite a lot of energy in the room; by using subs to break up the standing wave that bass energy peak is vastly reduced or gone entirely.

One other thing that makes this possible: at 80Hz the wavelength is 14 feet. The ear needs the entire waveform to pass by it to detect that a note is there and a few more to winnow out what note it actually is. By that time (in all but the largest rooms) the bass note has bounced all over the room a few times; its 100% reverberant. That means that decay time and time alignment are not important for this to work and a mono bass signal can be used (the main speakers will reproduce harmonics, allowing the listener to locate the bass instrument in the sound stage), so long as the subs are not allowed to go too high. In most rooms, practically speaking, this is about 80Hz. Most of the standing wave problems occur at a lower frequency so this is usually no worries.

 

[MPW]

This is my first post on WBF after being an observer for many years. I briefly met Ron at the Oakland area audio show in 2024 and he encouraged me to participate. So, here it goes.

My primary area of interest in this hobby is room acoustics. Listening seat position, speaker position, subwoofer use, room treatment. There has been discussion in this thread about one of the many uses of subwoofers, to break up standing waves. I just read that Gary Leeds will be demoing just that using VSA subs with Ron’s Clarysis speakers at T.H.E. Show later this week in Costa Mesa. I will be at the show and am particularly interested in this demonstration.

I wanted to share some REW graphs from my personal system to show the power of using subs to break up standing waves. What you are seeing is the before and after frequency response and waterfall graphs. The system uses Fyne F1-12 speakers and two Speaker Hardware sub kits that I built myself powered by a Dayton SA1000 subwoofer amplifier (I will share more about my system in the next couple of weeks and start a dedicated thread). One sub is to the right of the listening position and one is behind and to the left. Notice how flat the frequency response is and how the waterfall graphs do not get out of control after adding in the subs. Bottom line, when done properly this is an “easy” way to dramatically improve sound. I would encourage everyone to check out the demo this week and PM me if you would like any more info. I’m hoping I can help people achieve improved sound through a better understanding of how to use tools like subwoofers and REW.

 

[AudioHR]

This is my first post on WBF after being an observer for many years. I briefly met Ron at the Oakland area audio show in 2024 and he encouraged me to participate. So, here it goes.

My primary area of interest in this hobby is room acoustics. Listening seat position, speaker position, subwoofer use, room treatment. There has been discussion in this thread about one of the many uses of subwoofers, to break up standing waves. I just read that Gary Leeds will be demoing just that using VSA subs with Ron’s Clarysis speakers at T.H.E. Show later this week in Costa Mesa. I will be at the show and am particularly interested in this demonstration.

I wanted to share some REW graphs from my personal system to show the power of using subs to break up standing waves. What you are seeing is the before and after frequency response and waterfall graphs. The system uses Fyne F1-12 speakers and two Speaker Hardware sub kits that I built myself powered by a Dayton SA1000 subwoofer amplifier (I will share more about my system in the next couple of weeks and start a dedicated thread). One sub is to the right of the listening position and one is behind and to the left. Notice how flat the frequency response is and how the waterfall graphs do not get out of control after adding in the subs. Bottom line, when done properly this is an “easy” way to dramatically improve sound. I would encourage everyone to check out the demo this week and PM me if you would like any more info. I’m hoping I can help people achieve improved sound through a better understanding of how to use tools like subwoofers and REW.

Looking forward to your contribution!

 

[Ron Resnick]

TINKA WEENER IN FORBES

I am so proud of my talented and brilliant wife!

Tinka Weener On The Ancient Inspiration Behind Songs Of Siren

It is unusual for a brand only a few weeks old to show at London Fashion Week, but for Tinka Weener, the mind behind Songs of Siren, this triumph will..

www.forbes.com

 

[LL21]

TINKA WEENER IN FORBES

I am so proud of my talented and brilliant wife!

Tinka Weener On The Ancient Inspiration Behind Songs Of Siren

It is unusual for a brand only a few weeks old to show at London Fashion Week, but for Tinka Weener, the mind behind Songs of Siren, this triumph will..

www.forbes.com

Wow! Fantastic and please pass our congratulations to Tinka!

 

[Kingrex]

TINKA WEENER IN FORBES

I am so proud of my talented and brilliant wife!

Tinka Weener On The Ancient Inspiration Behind Songs Of Siren

It is unusual for a brand only a few weeks old to show at London Fashion Week, but for Tinka Weener, the mind behind Songs of Siren, this triumph will..

www.forbes.com

Amazing work. Seems incredibly time consuming to make. Can a machine do it. Or is it all by hand.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Wow! Fantastic and please pass our congratulations to Tinka!

I will!

 

[The Roominator]

These pics further corroborate the benefit of a Swarm. A flatter and extended frequency response and a reduction in room modes.

 

[Holmz]

These pics further corroborate the benefit of a Swarm. A flatter and extended frequency response and a reduction in room modes.

That seems like a bit of a misleading plot. Why not just plot it from - infinity to infinity to get a straighter line?

The spectrograms do look pretty good though.

 

[Holli82]

TINKA WEENER IN FORBES

I am so proud of my talented and brilliant wife!

Tinka Weener On The Ancient Inspiration Behind Songs Of Siren

It is unusual for a brand only a few weeks old to show at London Fashion Week, but for Tinka Weener, the mind behind Songs of Siren, this triumph will..

www.forbes.com

Time for a new Corvette convertible

 

[The Roominator]

That seems like a bit of a misleading plot. Why not just plot it from - infinity to infinity to get a straighter line?

The spectrograms do look pretty good though.

I'm not sure what you are inferring. Please elaborate.

 

[sbnx]

I'm not sure what you are inferring. Please elaborate.

I think what is being said is that if you zoom out far enough anything looks flat. If you want to look at the frequency response then zoom in. If your average loudness is say 80dB then scaling the Y-axis from 60 to 100 should be good. Also, since you are looking at subwoofers there is no need to plot it out to 20 kHz. from 20 to 200Hz should be fine. See example below which is with a stereo pair of subwoofers crossed over at 30Hz with no DSP. 1/24 Oct smoothing.

 

[The Roominator]

The example was not to show “flat” but rather “flatter” for the subs versus no subs. 1:12 smoothing was used to provide a clearer picture. It is correct that I could have made it flat by extending it to infinity. I also could have done 1:2 smoothing.

The graph to 20kHz was to show overall room response. I guess it was distracting. My bad. Thanks for your comments.

 

[Thundersnow]

The example was not to show “flat” but rather “flatter” for the subs versus no subs. 1:12 smoothing was used to provide a clearer picture. It is correct that I could have made it flat by extending it to infinity. I also could have done 1:2 smoothing.

The graph to 20kHz was to show overall room response. I guess it was distracting. My bad. Thanks for your comments.

Your graph resolution is waaaaaay off. Use 45-105db for the resolution so that we can see a meaningful graph.

 

[Holmz]

I'm not sure what you are inferring. Please elaborate.

Like has been said.
If the room is say 30 dB, and the poeple on the tarmac with the jet engines are 120dB, then that sort of defines a min/max range.

The Dec say spectrograms are very good though, and showing it over the whole band is good (IMO).