Primer on dacs

[Gregadd]

My infatuation with the IFi hip dac has prompted me to learn more about dacs. I think it is the hardware that has improved. I don't know. Can anyone refer me to a good primer to a straightforward primer.
Thanking you in advance.
Greg

 

[Gregadd]

....First, it helps to get a clear idea of just how the new recording method differs from the old. In the past, all sound reproducers - from the tin- horn Victrola to the latest LP player - worked on the principle of analog recording. This means that the record groove is a replica of the actual sound wave. Fidelity depends on making the replica correspond precisely to the original, an ideal never fully attained. Besides, tracking a groove with a needle or stylus creates inherent distortions which, though greatly reduced in recent years, have not been wholly eliminated.
By contrast, the laser-scanned Compact Disk does away altogether with groove and stylus. Instead, every musical sound - as defined by pitch, loudness and timbre - is encoded as a binary number intelligible to computer circuits. These numbers - not the waveform of the sound - are recorded as a series of digital ''bits.'' (A bit, in computer lingo, is a basic unit of information, consisting of either ''1'' or ''0'' - that is, either the presence or the absence of an electric pulse.)...

 

[rbbert]

https://xiph.org/
has a lot of technical information, although the underling premise is that CD audio (16/44.1 PCM) is "perfect"

https://www.stereophile.com/content/high-resolution-audio-primer
has some useful information and some helpful references

 

[rando]

One of the more interesting aspects of digital to analog converters is a 10¢ DAC chip in the hands of someone who knows how to implement it will probably sound better than a very expensive DAC chip primarily used to create a price point differentiation. There are a lot of false signals where quality and especially SQ are concerned. At least at a level which interests that other guy.

I'm pretty sure most primers are going to be largely remedial for you. There are certainly enough people here who could suggest a pathway forwards based on your known likes and history. You cut a wide enough swathe to make me believe this venture would be highly readable. If you are doing more than entertaining a fancy.


That hip DAC looks like a great device at a very good price. What are you using for a (mobile) playback software and on what devices?

 

[Gregadd]

One of the more interesting aspects of digital to analog converters is a 10¢ DAC chip in the hands of someone who knows how to implement it will probably sound better than a very expensive DAC chip primarily used to create a price point differentiation. There are a lot of false signals where quality and especially SQ are concerned. At least at a level which interests that other guy.

I'm pretty sure most primers are going to be largely remedial for you. There are certainly enough people here who could suggest a pathway forwards based on your known likes and history. You cut a wide enough swathe to make me believe this venture would be highly readable. If you are doing more than entertaining a fancy.


That hip DAC looks like a great device at a very good price. What are you using for a (mobile) playback software and on what devices?

I use my cell phone (android} and laptop (Windows).
Remedial? Maybe? I find that a good grasp of fundamentals is necessary for true understanding? fpr example could I really explain jitter?

 

[rando]

I suspect you guessed by remedial I meant written for those with much less audio experience. Afraid to say a large portion that type of info is spread very thinly across forums or online magazines.


I couldn't really explain jitter in this crowd. Not a chance. Segueing into further defining what software you use. Emile recently mentioned jitter is something that will increasingly be handled on the Extreme server in TAS (software) not frenetically chasing the solution through hardware and cables.

Using a program like eXtream's USB Audio Player Pro on your Android phone when connected to your hip DAC will impact jitter. It defeats a lot Android's OS and other apps running on it would actively do to restrain audio. Credit where credit is due, iFi hardware and engineering is predominantly responsible for the rough and tumble nature of portable audio being enjoyable to you. Recognizing when you come into contact with signs of jitter, or other faulty behaviors, and discovering what impacts them is likely to be a hands on source of learning. Lots of invisible waves out there. Lots of vibration.

You might try looking up reviews of DAC by slowly doing a search back in time. For instance discussions of the previous generation MSB or Lampi offerings are bound to be littered with comparisons to older devices. You can safely start jumping forwards when the DAC start to resemble nothing so much as a pipe bomb. That is the practical hands on side from which much can be gleaned. From people you know or may be acquainted with on the wider web.

More technically, taming of USB 2.0 and seeing how far the spec for cable behavior could be broken will be very instructive. Maybe you'll find pinouts and such good fun or see under the skin enough to think better of another cable debate. I/O is key in a device, computer audio device, lying between source and amp. This was buried in my bookmarks. Beneath all the technical blather* is something that can be scraped for reasonably secure ideas on what are... DAC buffers. Or maybe even complex routines of down and upconverting signals inside the DAC chip that skirt *intellectual property*. Digital is messy stuff. Much funner to take along on a walk than dig too deeply into. Since you went as far as looking into a mirror that would never cast a good reflection. This might be what you want at a slightly steep pace?

 

[Gregadd]

Good advice. I have followed digital since the advent of the CD. It was a bad idea(CD not digital). A decision was made to replace vinyl with CD. Rather than introduce it gradually. With a large vinyl collection I kind of ignored CD. I did have a trio of good CD players(Phillips, Marantz, Accuphase) each better than the other. I am sort of a pragmatist. I did not really care why they sounded better. They remained my secondary source.
In the beginning digital just bullied its' way into dominance. The resurgence of tubes and vinyl forced them to reconsider their position. People, not just audiophiles were tired of the digital sound. Convenience and the reissue of old music just was not enough.
Like any aging champ digital was forced to admit its fault. It hired new people. rededicated itself, and adopted a new strategy. Discarding physical media, adopting new sample rates, and asynchronous dacs made a big difference. Adopting better recording tactics in general has made a difference.
I never cared much for theory. I am more an applied mathematician so to speak. If I do this then that happens. Another dac Amber3 also impressed me. At the relatively low price of @$3k.
It may be that my expectation were so low. Binaural combined with quality headphones can be spooky good. A sort of "Best in breed" if not "Best in Show."
Don't worry I'll get up to speed.
BIT DEPTH

​

 

[Gregadd]

Digital Problems, Practical Solutions (soundonsound.com) YoI are right. This is remedial. But i had forgotten it.

Hopefully, trticle has helped to straighten out some of those long-held myths and confusions about digital audio, and maybe even encouraged some of you to look upon using digital audio equipment in a new light and with new working practices. Properly engineered digital audio does work, and matches or exceeds the performance of analogue audio in many technical areas. It sounds different in some ways, certainly, which leads to a personal and aesthetic choice of medium. But the arguments about which is better don't stand up on their own any more. You have to ask better for what? Digital is a clear winner in some areas and analogue in others. Of course, there's nothing to stop you mixing and matching the technologies, to have the best of both worlds...

 

[rando]

Did a very quick search this morning revealing jitter especially is a topic of interest to you.

Digital primer

While I am not planing to design a digital device I think it is about time to learn the basics. I doubt if the mebers are as green as I am but if you like I can postt some of the videos I am watching here, I hope this is the right place to put it. Moderators please feel free to move it if you...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Jitter vs no-Jitter

Jitter vs no-Jitter This picture is a Jitter test of DAC no.1. Jitter is so low at this window that practically it cannot be measured. This picture is a Jitter test of DAC no.2. Jitter is high and over 200ps. Question - Listening to two equal tracks - "A1" and "A2" -...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Truth is you are not wrong that in order to comprehend digital advances it is necessary to dig in thereabouts fields of interest actual digital advancements happen in. With a strong fundamental grasp of the ideas present.

I'll conservatively note OS/firmware/programs/command prompt --- software is the hand built in a shed continuation of top tier analog to large degree. To that end, little digital is playing with the same entertaining disruption of fields and other trickery analog did. Built up to a serious level you can still hear right down to the circuit. Same applies to the toys, but who wants to ruin the fun while it lasts. Heresy on a gear forum, but consumer hardware is the least stimulating place to devote interest aimed at exploring new development. Some trailing off into theory, into "cation lifters", is inevitable when lit with the harsh digital light ever present in modern life.



This appears to have been the acceptable disguise for staying abreast new developments even back in the old days. Maybe a different set of circumstances apply to those with a built up caché to ward off ill effects.

Someone needs to be around to deliver kicks in the pants and put smiles back in their correct orientation.

 

[Gregadd]

Thank you. I saw that video. It's starting to come back to me.

 

[DonH50]

There are several threads explaining the fundamentals of data conversion, jitter, and all that jazz here on WBF if you want the technical explanations. I tried to target a high-layman level so with high-school math and some exposure to things like frequency response plots and so forth you should be able to follow them. See link to the list in my signature.

HTH - Don

 

[rando]

Thank you. I saw that video. It's starting to come back to me.

Being digital, perception of errors is quite likely. Might you be dragged out into the open a bit further with a promise to be serious for a moment without calling whatever it is silly? If you find there is even means to relay what I suspect is a deeply ingrained sense nagging away gained from riding the crest of analog over successive years.

This ongoing round of investigations went from general primer to jitter to bit depth and sampling rates. So that is my next stop. We haven't settled what bit perfect (or HQP4) player software you have on your laptop! To keep the ball rolling I'm going to link a couple of known good provenance high res and DSD files that are freely offered for testing and trials. DSD vs. tracks derived from the exact same master file have a chance to exhibit differences if nothing else stands out.


These first two are MA recordings/Audiophiliac samplers in standard and then in high resolution formats. Safely hosted somewhere offsite that can handle the bandwidth.

Standard resolution

High resolution


Second is the 2L HiRes Testbench with lots on offer from 16/44 to DSD256 + MQA if you want to sink that low.

http://www.2l.no/hires/

 

[Gregadd]

Thank you. I am using Windows 10 with the Windows media Player as a default. with the Lenovo Yoga laptop. I also use an outboard dac.

 

[Gregadd]

I seem to recall going through all this during the flame war debates over digital v. vinyl. Measurements don't really matter to me because I am a consumer not a producer. I pat other people to do that.
I remember I had dealer who let me audition equipment in his store. He told me he never had to ask me if I liked something. He knew. If I did not like I would come looking for him. If I liked head to come looking for me. The ultimate test for any equipment is will you listen. Do you enjoy it. For me digital has always been decidedly hi fi. You can enjoy its strength but it always missing something. That is even after it dealt with its obious faults. I hunted for good recordings. Recordings that could mask its defects and accent it's strengths.
What's my point? I feel digital has begun to cross the line from hi fi to musicality. It's been a slow march but it might actually get there. I do not what happened. I can nolongr say the latest digital robs the music of its' soul. I would like to know how they did it.

.

 

[Gregadd]

Its time to end my ignorance on digital. Yes it is boring.

 

[Gregadd]

There is a series of videos on you tube that make it relatively easy to get started.
For example it is the Whitaker',Nyquist,Shannon sampling theory. Circa early 1900,s.

 

[Gregadd]

Digital Audio Fundamentals
SAMPLING THEOREM
you tube

 

[Gregadd]

Digital Audio Fundamentals
ALIASING
you tube

 

[Gregadd]

Digital Audio Fundamentals
QUANTIZATION
you tube

 

[Gregadd]

Digital Audio Fundamentals
COMMON AUDIO SAMPLING RATES
you tube