Objectivists, Harman Testing, Reviewers, and Reality

[mep]

Trust me, Amir attempts are not being lost on "everyone" ... because not "everyone" wishes to be pandered like an LCD (lowest common denominator).

I never said they are lost on everyone and I for one wouldn't read any publication that made me feel like I was being pandered to.

people can do/buy what they please, but IMO they should be educating themselves in any venture they take seriously; thankfully some forums aim to share such knowledge.

There is a difference between sharing knowledge and browbeating people to learn what you want them to learn and doing what you want them to do. What's going on here now is the latter. I joined a forum, not a cult.

 

[TBone]

I never said they are lost on everyone and I for one wouldn't read any publication that made me feel like I was being pandered to

I'd use your recent "review" as an example of LCD pandering, but I'll take the high road ...

There is a difference between sharing knowledge and browbeating people to learn what you want them to learn and doing what you want them to do. What's going on here now is the latter. I joined a forum, not a cult.

Nobody is browbeating anyone here, and again, why the silly generalizations (cult) that lump "everyone" together ... if this isn't the place you envisioned ...

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I never said they are lost on everyone and I for one wouldn't read any publication that made me feel like I was being pandered to.





There is a difference between sharing knowledge and browbeating people to learn what you want them to learn and doing what you want them to do. What's going on here now is the latter. I joined a forum, not a cult.

I don't personally think it's as much about insistence on learning something new as it is about denying what's right in front of you by finding a thousand thin excuses to dismiss what you don't want to believe. And I use "you" in the broader sense, I don't mean you personally

 

[Alan Sircom]

Surely it is the preserve of the loudspeaker manufacturer to make a good loudspeaker , and the retail representatives of that loudspeaker to advise on a suitable amplifier?
I can't believe there isn't room in a magazine for half a side of measurement data, does everything have to be dumbed down to sell.
Keith.

No, not everything has to be dumbed down, but neither does everything have to come with an expectation of understanding the rubrics underlying this industry. We can have both - it's not an either/or thing.

Some people want to know everything about a thing before they buy that thing. Most just want to know what thing to buy. Audio is no different from any other consumer good in this respect.

 

[amirm]

Forums create strong opinions, but I think the handful of people who think an audio magazine should be the JAES with more pictures need a fairly serious reality check.

You are right that the AES published papers and conference proceedings are extremely hard and dense material to understand. The way to do it though is to a) simplify what is there and b) connect it to here and now. I have now done that in a series of articles I have been writing for the Widescreen Review Magazine over the last five or so years (see http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/Library.html) to very positive feedback. So much so that what I write is a fraction of what my editor wants and his readership like to read.

It is not easy work though. I strive to have the material be correct when read by the top experts while at the same time be understandable by enthusiasts. I often worry I may have oversimplified the topic too much and lost accuracy only to run into designers and experts in the field who praise them.

I have had an aspiration to expand the idea on WBF in what I call "AES paper digest." I like to take a paper, distill it down to information that membership can understand and take away to apply in their search for best equipment. I read so many of them and after hours of digging in, I realize the central message is actually quite approachable. And quite useful. It is one more thing to do though so I have not gotten back to it.

Now does this make good business case for a magazine to do? I don't know. I don't run a magazine and I write for free and not sure others would do the same, and be able to produce the same. I do know that the desire is there per my message to Mark for readers to know more of what goes on in audio research and professional, accepted science of audio outside of what is discussed in forums.

 

[TBone]

Some people want to know everything about a thing before they buy that thing. Most just want to know what thing to buy. Audio is no different from any other consumer good in this respect.

I'm in no position to determine who is "some" as compared to "most" here ... but the world is an ever-changing environment, and in my travels, I'm encountering younger audiophiles who are as smart as ever, and want to know more ... preferring to asking pertinent questions before throwing cash ... they question the status quo as they should. Our generation should be more aware of the next generations requirements, whatever avenue that may take ...

 

[amirm]

There is a difference between sharing knowledge and browbeating people to learn what you want them to learn and doing what you want them to do. What's going on here now is the latter. I joined a forum, not a cult.

You can't simultaneously attend a republican convention and complain that as a democrat, you should not have gone there . This forum has a quarter million threads you could contribute to. And you can create your own on any topic. Instead, you are here, having created a thread to discuss the very thing you now seem to be saying is you don't want to hear. The title you gave it is, "Objectivists, Harman Testing, Reviewers, and Reality." These are all the things we are discussing. We are talking about Harman testing. We are talking about Objective evaluation of audio. We are talking about reviewers. And we are talking about the reality of audio performance versus perception, and the reality of reviewing audio equipment and application to membership needs. If the response is strongly different than what you desire, it doesn't make it cult-like. Or cause to complain about the "forum." The forum is not the one or two threads we are discussing this topic in.

 

[rbbert]

...Do you think the lack of measurements and pref data about dynamics discounts the data we have?

Tim

Not at all, if you have paid attention to what I have posted it should be clear I want more objective data, not less. OTOH, I think subjective impressions can be useful also, especially at the current SOTA of audio testing and reviewing, and that "blind" testing has very little utility at this time.

 

[rbbert]

...There is a difference between sharing knowledge and browbeating people to learn what you want them to learn and doing what you want them to do. What's going on here now is the latter. I joined a forum, not a cult.

I understand what you mean here by "browbeating", but it would appear that you too are essentially asking us to join a "cult", that of the "expert", totally subjective, accountable to no one reviewer. Sorry, but that's just as abhorent to me. If I have misread your intention, please clarify

 

[Alan Sircom]

I'm in no position to determine who is "some" as compared to "most" here ... but the world is an ever-changing environment, and in my travels, I'm encountering younger audiophiles who are as smart as ever, and want to know more ... preferring to asking pertinent questions before throwing cash ... they question the status quo as they should. Our generation should be more aware of the next generations requirements, whatever avenue that may take ...

This is possibly a call to separate what goes on in forums against what happens IRL. Forums inevitably preach to the choir.

A car forum is likely to obsess and discuss things like tire specifications. I know of a Porsche launch where they invited three of the most fervent Porsche enthusiasts on the forums, who seemed to know more about Porsche engineering and performance than most Porsche engineers and test drivers. Two of them were too young to drive. Whereas, a lot of people who buy Porsches know a fraction of that kind of knowledge. They just like the idea of driving a Porsche.

This forum has an exceptionally high degree of understanding of the topic, which is rarely exhibited beyond a forum like this.

Head-Fi has the same. There are a lot of people who really, really know their way around headphones, headphone amps, DACs etc. Not everyone has or wants the same core knowledge. Hence... Beats!

As I said, it's a broad enough topic for there to be a space for those who want to understand the topic, and those who simply want to buy something good to listen to their music.

 

[mep]

Amir-You keep missing my points and/or twisting my words around to make them fit a point you are trying to make. I have grown weary of trying to refute the words you are trying to put in my mouth that I never said. It's your forum, you are always right, and you always win.

 

[mep]

I understand what you mean here by "browbeating", but it would appear that you too are essentially asking us to join a "cult", that of the "expert", totally subjective, accountable to no one reviewer. Sorry, but that's just as abhorent to me. If I have misread your intention, please clarify

Of course you misread my intention as I never asked you to do a damn thing.

 

[TBone]

This is possibly a call to separate what goes on in forums against what happens IRL. Forums inevitably preach to the choir.

... not all members "inevitably" comply.

This forum has an exceptionally high degree of understanding of the topic, which is rarely exhibited beyond a forum like this.

I like this forum, or I'd not participate, but many other forums also have much to add, you just need to look in the right places, yet another educational endeavor ...

 

[TBone]

Amir-You keep missing my points and/or twisting my words around to make them fit a point you are trying to make. I have grown weary of trying to refute the words you are trying to put in my mouth that I never said. It's your forum, you are always right, and you always win.

defeatist attitude indeed.

 

[DaveC]

One more opinion...

http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index...infer-a-speaker-s-sound-from-its-measurements

 

[rbbert]

Of course you misread my intention as I never asked you to do a damn thing.

True, but neither did amir ask it of you; nevertheless, both of you are asking for at least respect, if not agreement, for your individual POV's. I happen to think you are both wrong, but of course that's JMO. Interestingly, it appears to me that a somewhat middle ground has appeared, that elucidated by Alan Sircom, but of course I may be misreading his intentions as wel...

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Not at all, if you have paid attention to what I have posted it should be clear I want more objective data, not less. OTOH, I think subjective impressions can be useful also, especially at the current SOTA of audio testing and reviewing, and that "blind" testing has very little utility at this time.

Sorry, with two nearly identical threads, it isn't easy to keep up with who said what. We agree on much, but I'm of the opinion that blind listening is the only listening that has any utility beyond simply enjoying the music. Sighted listening is filled with bias, and useless for creating any actionable, believable data. MHO. YMMV.

 

[Rodney Gold]

I'm not a reviewer etc , but whatever I'm considering buying is thoroughly investigated via many channels..that's part of the fun..
Im as keen as to see tech stuff as subjective reviews , threads on forums and so on.


The ultimate arbiter is how it sounds , and preferably in my room..where possible..failing that I rely on my homework and hope for the best.
Not sure Im the typical consumer..but a lot of my pals do that too.

Interesting thread tho..

 

[mep]

Sorry, with two nearly identical threads, it isn't easy to keep up with who said what. We agree on much, but I'm of the opinion that blind listening is the only listening that has any utility beyond simply enjoying the music. Sighted listening is filled with bias, and useless for creating any actionable, believable data. MHO. YMMV.

Please list all of the components you have ever purchased as a result of DBT testing.

 

[mep]

True, but neither did amir ask it of you; nevertheless, both of you are asking for at least respect, if not agreement, for your individual POV's. I happen to think you are both wrong, but of course that's JMO. Interestingly, it appears to me that a somewhat middle ground has appeared, that elucidated by Alan Sircom, but of course I may be misreading his intentions as wel...

Say what? Amir never asked me to do anything? Were you sleeping when he said it was my job to get audio companies to release their measurements? Did you miss the part where Amir said that reviewers need to buy test gear and measure the gear they review? Come on man.