Objectivist or Subjectivist? Give Me a Break

[NorthStar]

Yes we agree on this.

But that still doesn't take into account the biological variables.

-----Myles, could you please elaborate on that (your own take).
I would truly appreciate that, comin' from a man of your status.

With all due respect from a propeller head, I don't think the biological/cultural aspect is overplayed at all. Music has existed long before attempts to reproduce it. We don't need the science if all we want is to enjoy it. Knowing how and why things work is terribly cool but we must remember that it can also distract.

-----Jack, that is very interesting what you're saying, and I believe it deserves further 'approfondissement'.

But science is indeed important, and so are the emotions (music listening 'sensorial' pleasures).
...Even the reproducing/performing artists, of course.

I agree with most members here; we need more accurate measurements, and the knowledge to interpret them as accurately as possible as well.
Also, thermal equations, and human metabolism disposition (physical and mental) are influences of our overall judgements. So, yes, biology comes into his own from the full ensemble here.

* The last five pages from this thread contains a lot of excellent posts; I am growing ....

 

[jkeny]

Got me. Never run a null test in my life.

Tim

So you have a "belief" in them based on your reply to Ethan about "accuracy"!

 

[NorthStar]

---...Oh, and I almost forget; improvements on the technical recording side.
...From the real pros with the real artists playing the real music;
and not from those 'wanna-be stars' environment.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

---Also, thermal equations, and human metabolism disposition (physical and mental) are influences of our overall judgements. So, yes, biology comes into his own from the full ensemble here.

* The last five pages from this thread contains a lot of excellent posts; I am growing ....

OK ...colour me an idiot, but Bob I have no idea what that means.

As far as the last 5 pages are concerned.........I really think people have gone off the deep end here.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

OK ...colour me an idiot, but Bob I have no idea what that means.

As far as the last 5 pages are concerned.........I really think people have gone off the deep end here.

And a couple of us can't swim.

Tim

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

And a couple of us can't swim.

Tim

I know I'm drowning ....

 

[NorthStar]

---Oh it's very simple John;

"Thermal equations" are the temperature matters, like on a sunny day or a rainy day, or very hot or very cold or just right on. Temperatures also affect electronics, not just our dispositions. ...Speakers, LPs, etc.

"Human metabolism disposition" is the internal state of humans in relation to their biological health.
Each one of us has its on DNA, and the chemical compositions of the human body and brain has a direct influence on his perception, and his overall senses.
Like some days our mood is more disposed to a cetain type of music, and all that kind of jazz.

I dunno I thought I was pretty clear.

* But I take it as a positive advice and will try to use simpler terms next time.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

It clearer now, so thanks!

I'm a simpleton...so a lot of this stuff just flies right over my head.

 

[NorthStar]

---No sweat, the temperature is just perfect here today. :b

* Listening to Classic Jazz -music right now, on the r.a.d.i.o. (analog).

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

---No sweat, the temperature is just perfect here today. :b

Same here....so perfect that I forgot the specs of my equipment and decided to throw caution to the wind and play some music! I know I'm missing a lot, but hey....that's the way I roll!


Hi guys!

 

[jkeny]

Same here....so perfect that I forgot the specs of my equipment and decided to throw caution to the wind and play some music! I know I'm missing a lot, but hey....that's the way I roll!


Hi guys!

Stop immediately! You could be doing untold damage to your hearing never mind your credibility. Don't you realise that sort of thing is not allowed?

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Stop immediately! You could be doing untold damage to your hearing never mind your credibility. Don't you realise that sort of thing is not allowed?

I'm almost 60 ... I could care less about my credibility now. I might need to back off on Black Sabbath-Paranoia though! LOL!

 

[JackD201]

Hi Frantz and Tim,

Science allows us to make better and more consistent tools. There's no argument there. I personally would just like to see a more balanced approach to its application. In Universities and Labs around the world, scientists across many disciplines are working on understanding human perception. As far as I know, hearing has not been mapped out and modeled to the same degree as say, sight where the gaming and entertainment industries' markets quest for virtual reality have provided comparably greater incentives. In audio we see it lag behind because it was telephony that pushed research and we know that the Bell Labs research really was adequate for its much more limited goal and application. As a tiny example the modern orchestra and Napier's work on Log functions came about in roughly the same time period. Musicians and composers knew then that biologically, doubling of perceived loudness required 9 to 10 times and not 2 times output 300 years before the decibel, based on Napier's work in mathematics, was applied to sound and became a unit.

The question is, where are we now really? Are there more standard units needed as disparities suggest or are there enough?

Jack

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hi Frantz and Tim,

Science allows us to make better and more consistent tools. There's no argument there. I personally would just like to see a more balanced approach to its application. In Universities and Labs around the world, scientists across many disciplines are working on understanding human perception. As far as I know, hearing has not been mapped out and modeled to the same degree as say, sight where the gaming and entertainment industries' markets quest for virtual reality have provided comparably greater incentives. In audio we see it lag behind because it was telephony that pushed research and we know that the Bell Labs research really was adequate for its much more limited goal and application. As a tiny example the modern orchestra and Napier's work on Log functions came about in roughly the same time period. Musicians and composers knew then that biologically, doubling of perceived loudness required 9 to 10 times and not 2 times output 300 years before the decibel, based on Napier's work in mathematics, was applied to sound and became a unit.

The question is, where are we now really? Are there more standard units needed as disparities suggest or are there enough?

Jack

More standard units of measurement? Sure. Let's take all we can get. Let's use what we've got. Let's stop denying what we use.

Tim

 

[NorthStar]

Hi Frantz and Tim,

Science allows us to make better and more consistent tools. There's no argument there. I personally would just like to see a more balanced approach to its application. In Universities and Labs around the world, scientists across many disciplines are working on understanding human perception. As far as I know, hearing has not been mapped out and modeled to the same degree as say, sight where the gaming and entertainment industries' markets quest for virtual reality have provided comparably greater incentives. In audio we see it lag behind because it was telephony that pushed research and we know that the Bell Labs research really was adequate for its much more limited goal and application. As a tiny example the modern orchestra and Napier's work on Log functions came about in roughly the same time period. Musicians and composers knew then that biologically, doubling of perceived loudness required 9 to 10 times and not 2 times output 300 years before the decibel, based on Napier's work in mathematics, was applied to sound and became a unit.

The question is, where are we now really? Are there more standard units needed as disparities suggest or are there enough?

Jack

-----This is the age of the Aquarius.

...USB, iPhones, HDMI, hi res Download (audio/video), Droids, FastSpeed, 4D, 3K , tablets, and all that new 2012 jazz. :b

...New Audiogon?

 

[JackD201]

You're reminding me of Frank Tom!

 

[NorthStar]

Making plain old stereo replicate the live event is not even up to the idea of changing the carberation on a VW bug to enter it into the formula one races.....

No matter how many measurments you invent or in reality, are actually revealed by those in the know, it looks bad, speakers suck as loads and pinpoint sources do not resemble reality nor does "stereo effect". Its a lose lose situation, trying to put lipstick on a pig.

We got what we got, as mentioned earlier, dsp or other things can help with the illusion, but it is indeed limited.

The US Marines say, adapt, improvise, and overcome.....to do this with stereo, first adapt to its illusion, get gear you like for preference, and then overcome by knowing that all you can do is play about with it like landing a fish, its still going to be a fish when you land it.

Or, go buy the latest 150,000 refernce amp, that replaced the reference amps from two years ago, and is SO much better....aha aha aha

Thank goodness we love the music and fuss about the gear instead of the other way round

-----I thought this one was a pretty fair accuracy of what reproduced music sounds and looks like. :b

Watch it in its entirety though ::

 

[NorthStar]

You're reminding me of Frank Tom!

-----Frank Tom? Who's he?

 

[JackD201]

there should be a comma in there somewhere

 

[NorthStar]

---Yeah, Frank, I knew. :b

* I miss him (unlike most of the people here). :b...I did have some communication with him at another audio site after he left us here, but no more now.

But I am pretty sure where he is though. :b ...Just not the place where I hang out.
...It's for the real pros over there, the true "doers".

But here's some truth; Frank is a good human being; and no matter how far-out he was most of the time. ...And he has a great sense of humor too.
I could say much more, but I just won't. :b

_________________

Wow, four smilies in my short post regarding my good friend Frankie from Australia!

Jack, here's another one, and this is absolutely true:
Frank at one point wasn't sure of my friendship (in the sense that he thought that I was making fun of him; but I certainly wasn't), because I guess I was perhaps the only person who was sincere and truly friendly with him.
But Frank isn't the only person who experienced that with me; most people are real afraid of true friends ... They have to trust every single word and even understand the meaning of each one of those words. Plus when you are French and that you are using a vocabulary that is out of the average American/English normality, plus with a poetic accent; it is even more freekish!
{Of course, with some people things click automatically, just like they could with me too.}

I totally understood and respected Frank. ...And still.