Objectivist or Subjectivist? Give Me a Break

---Listen, analog Hi-Fi Stereo is from the 60s and 70s (LPs, cassettes, R2R tapes). ...With all the mechanical discomforts; wow, flutter, heads' misalignment, restricted dynamic range, lower S/N ratios, higher THD, and all that imperfect jazz.

Nowadays it's digital High Res Download audio, and in Multichannel. Plus Hybrid SACDs, and Live music concerts on Blu-ray with high def picture and high res audio.

That we got to grasp or live in the past. We now live in the digital Super-Fi Multich era.

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Add up:

Just a simple comparison of words:

Objective vs Subjective
Analog vs Digital
Azimuth vs Jitter
 
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'Dumping Factor'; that one I truly appreciate.

Is that a new measurement of marketing prowess or just a typo?

Slew rate requires putting an amplifier into gross linearity - its like clipping, but in relation to speed of change of signal. Its really beyond me why we would characterize an amp by abusing it :p I reckon that a THD measurement at 20kHz tells more useful info about an amplifier than its slew rate.
 
Ah, so about damping factor then - I'd prefer if it were replaced by a measure of an amp's output impedance over frequency. Much more useful than a single figure of the ratio of 8ohms to the output impedance. But then high damping factors sound so very impressive so its hard to imagine the marketing boys giving them up without a tussle.
 
Ah, so about damping factor then - I'd prefer if it were replaced by a measure of an amp's output impedance over frequency. Much more useful than a single figure of the ratio of 8ohms to the output impedance.

But even that doesn't tell the whole story. The impedance may dip on large transients or something like that. But then impedance is just a 'metaphor' for what the feedback amplifier is actually doing, just as the frequency domain is a convenient substitute for actually studying what the amplifier does with real signals in the time domain - which is, apparently too hard to do. People test amplifiers with resistive loads and, when challenged about this, say that because they know how the amplifier works, they can be sure that it is valid. (In another forum, I saw that any suggestion of building a more representative dummy load was met with sneers from the real experts.) This presumption that the tester knows more about how an amplifier works than the amplifier designer is part of what seems like a circularity in some audio testing.

So testing leaves gaps where people can speculate about transient intermodulation distortion, thermal distortion effects, power supply effects, difficult loads etc. and just shrug their shoulders saying that amplifiers that measure perfectly can also sound poor with real music. The obvious thing, it seems to me, is to test the amplifier with real music and real loads, and measure the deviation from "the straight wire with gain". There may be technical challenges that caused people historically to resort to frequency domain testing, but I think that we now have the capability to do it properly in the time domain. The key, I believe, is that there are certain deviations from "straight wire with gain" that people assert are inevitable but harmless, but which prevent you from making meaningful time domain measurements.

My idea would be to drive the device under test with real music and/or 'difficult' synthesised signals into a real load, and simultaneously sample the input and output. I would then apply a series of invariant, predictable processes to the output signal to null out errors between the two signals, starting with a gain modification, then time delay (both harmless), then frequency-dependent phase shift (arguably harmless) as necessary. It would then start to get interesting, as we might find we have to apply 'pre-distortion' to null out the effects of a clipping-style characteristic, or 'peaking' characteristic. We might begin to notice dips in gain or other 'blips' e.g. ringing, following sharp transients. We could quantify the deviations, classify them, and perhaps boost them to listen to their audible offensiveness against the desired signal (using headphones and a known reference headphone amplifier, say). This would not be possible using frequency domain-style measurements. Related to this, there is also the possibility of coming up with a pre-distorting system that perfectly corrects the amplifier, in which case simply build it into the amp! But presumably in the real world, distortions will drift with time and temperature, and multiple tests would reveal the extent of this.

The results would still be open to some interpretation of course, but the hope would be that the best amplifiers were so close to perfect that they could be pronounced as 'good' unambiguously. Amplifier designers would be incentivized to build amps to pass the tests, but the tests would be so realistic and representative of real audio, that the result must be a better all-round amp rather than something just designed to be good with a few specific signals.
 
How would the economics of all this work? I can't see any amplifier manufacturers paying (like for example, THX certification) to mark their products 'Groucho compliant' without a huge investment in marketing to give your mark credibility. Magazines probably won't support it because it would take away the job of subjective reviewers to a degree, though if you took out full page spreads in their publications they might warm to you. You say that designers would be incentivized but how? - I can't yet see it.
 
But even that doesn't tell the whole story. The impedance may dip on large transients or something like that. But then impedance is just a 'metaphor' for what the feedback amplifier is actually doing, just as the frequency domain is a convenient substitute for actually studying what the amplifier does with real signals in the time domain - which is, apparently too hard to do. People test amplifiers with resistive loads and, when challenged about this, say that because they know how the amplifier works, they can be sure that it is valid. (In another forum, I saw that any suggestion of building a more representative dummy load was met with sneers from the real experts.) This presumption that the tester knows more about how an amplifier works than the amplifier designer is part of what seems like a circularity in some audio testing.

So testing leaves gaps where people can speculate about transient intermodulation distortion, thermal distortion effects, power supply effects, difficult loads etc. and just shrug their shoulders saying that amplifiers that measure perfectly can also sound poor with real music. The obvious thing, it seems to me, is to test the amplifier with real music and real loads, and measure the deviation from "the straight wire with gain". There may be technical challenges that caused people historically to resort to frequency domain testing, but I think that we now have the capability to do it properly in the time domain. The key, I believe, is that there are certain deviations from "straight wire with gain" that people assert are inevitable but harmless, but which prevent you from making meaningful time domain measurements.

My idea would be to drive the device under test with real music and/or 'difficult' synthesised signals into a real load, and simultaneously sample the input and output. I would then apply a series of invariant, predictable processes to the output signal to null out errors between the two signals, starting with a gain modification, then time delay (both harmless), then frequency-dependent phase shift (arguably harmless) as necessary. It would then start to get interesting, as we might find we have to apply 'pre-distortion' to null out the effects of a clipping-style characteristic, or 'peaking' characteristic. We might begin to notice dips in gain or other 'blips' e.g. ringing, following sharp transients. We could quantify the deviations, classify them, and perhaps boost them to listen to their audible offensiveness against the desired signal (using headphones and a known reference headphone amplifier, say). This would not be possible using frequency domain-style measurements. Related to this, there is also the possibility of coming up with a pre-distorting system that perfectly corrects the amplifier, in which case simply build it into the amp! But presumably in the real world, distortions will drift with time and temperature, and multiple tests would reveal the extent of this.

The results would still be open to some interpretation of course, but the hope would be that the best amplifiers were so close to perfect that they could be pronounced as 'good' unambiguously. Amplifier designers would be incentivized to build amps to pass the tests, but the tests would be so realistic and representative of real audio, that the result must be a better all-round amp rather than something just designed to be good with a few specific signals.

Among the many inadequacies of testing consumer audio equipment is the FR test at one watt into a resistive load. 80 years ago that test would reveal very real and audible differences among amplifiers becuase it showed significant differences and most amplifiers didn't put out much more than one watt. Today it's all but worthless. What decent amplifier doesn't pass this test with flying colors? But that is not how real amplifiers are used today. They not only work into complex impedances that can be very far from resistive and very low (consider speakers like AR3 which dip below one ohm at times) but there can also be considerable reverse EMF. How that affects power supply biasing and pushing the quiescent operating point of the outputs stage and even earlier stages around doesn't show up in the test and can vary considerably. In a way it's related to how robust the power supply is. The need for TIM is also a consequence of the one watt FR test. As power (or voltage) output increases, high end response falls off. It doesn't have the same FR at high power as at low power. This is what's meant by slewing rate distortion. But we don't look at it that way. Since it's not harmonically related and it's not part of the linear distortion tests, it falls into the catchall of "other" distortions, intermodulation distortion and noise. Since it only happens at higher output levels where the amplifier must slew from maximum positive to negative output and back to positive again it's called transient. It was a way to make a simple concept complex and therefore more impressive and intimidating. This has been one of my pet peeves about amplifier specifications. A real world test that would show all significant differences might not be easy to construct. It would need careful thought. But at least one thing is sure, it would need to reflect real world worst case usage and show real difference from one amplifier to another. That's something the tests we have now don't do.
 
I think most do it because they think they have to :). I have seen very little science based installation of acoustic material. Most is based on what is thought to be common knowledge which in reality could very well be wrong. I wrote an article on this in the latest copy of Widescreen Review magazine. I will post it here in a few weeks.

Amir,

"Indeed, if you search for room acoustics online, nine out of ten articles or forum posts will tell you exactly the same thing". I think you are being optimistic - perhaps ninety nine out of one hundred! :) It cost me a lot of work and some wasted mineral rock in the past. :(
 
Suffice to say your focus on information doesn't cut it for me, rather its meaning that I make from the information that's given. You said it yourself - 'if you have the skill and understand' - that's the skill of making meaning from information. Information is by no means sufficient - we need understanding.

Hello Opus111


We obviously have a very good understanding or we would still be listening to wax cylinders. As far as meaning goes anyone who has a measurement set-up knows exactly what they are looking for when they make the measurement. Granted the meaning may not be obvious to an outsider but the point is they get enough information needed to make a decision if they are moving in the right direction.



rather its meaning that I make from the information that's given.

That is a completely different topic looking at manufacturers spec sheets. What they give you is what has been given for decades. Very few will give you a meaningful set of measurements. That has nothing to do with the utility or usefulness of measurements.

Rob:)
 
We obviously have a very good understanding or we would still be listening to wax cylinders. As far as meaning goes anyone who has a measurement set-up knows exactly what they are looking for when they make the measurement. Granted the meaning may not be obvious to an outsider but the point is they get enough information needed to make a decision if they are moving in the right direction.

It seems we're talking at crossed purposes as I don't disagree here. I wasn't talking about measurements I choose to make for myself when I said that some measurements are relatively useless. If I found a measurement useless I'd not bother to take it.


That is a completely different topic looking at manufacturers spec sheets. What they give you is what has been given for decades. Very few will give you a meaningful set of measurements. That has nothing to do with the utility or usefulness of measurements.

Well that's the topic I've been talking about - specific measurements, not the principle of measurement. So it seems we're not disagreeing after all. Perhaps as your sig says you've been arguing in your spare time? ;)
 
I would love to see amplifier output impedance vs. frequency and power output replace damping factor. That is perhaps (and I mean exactly that, "perhaps") the single most important measurement for decribing differences among amplifiers when driving speakers (of course, we need speaker impedance plots too, but those are happening in a number of reviews).

I would also love to see more pulse testing, or at least small- and large-signal square waves at a few frequencies.
 
Ah, so about damping factor then - I'd prefer if it were replaced by a measure of an amp's output impedance over frequency. Much more useful than a single figure of the ratio of 8ohms to the output impedance. But then high damping factors sound so very impressive so its hard to imagine the marketing boys giving them up without a tussle.

-----'Damping Factor' is even more beneficial with given various load impedances,
and across the entire audio spectrum (frequency range). ...Yes! :b

...At different volume levels? ;) ...Oh ya.

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'Stability' is the key; in any type of Measurements & Listening. ...Be it objectif and subjectif.
 
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Yes, because the output impedance of most big amps changes with power output due to changes in the characteristics of the output devices as they supply more power. Furthermore, load pull affects them, meaning there is also sensitivity to the load (usually by impacting the feedback factor).
 
That is perhaps (and I mean exactly that, "perhaps") the single most important measurement for decribing differences among amplifiers when driving speakers (of course, we need speaker impedance plots too, but those are happening in a number of reviews).

Continuing in the vein of what perhaps might correlate better with listening, I'd be interested to see amps driven with common-mode signals, both in-band and (especially) out of band. By this I mean apply various frequencies, including ultrasonic to the ground input terminal(s) with the return at the speaker output common terminal. Then see what turns up on the speaker outputs. It would reveal quite a lot about the internal wiring topology and susceptibility to noise.
 
---A lot of measurements in our hobby are concentrated on the bible's scriptures of 1kHz.

It's so funny! :b ...Gimme real meat around 20Hz and 20kHz; and at different volume levels (minimum, medium, and maximum).

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Tom mentioned Triamping loudspeakers just above; that's a very good point, with separate active crossovers. ...That is truly where the true articulation of power resides (in the direct sense). :b
 
---A lot of measurements in our hobby are concentrated on the bible's scriptures of 1kHz.

I always calibrate my system for power using a -40 dB 1kHz CD track. And trust me, I would get a different value at 20kHz, my Fluke voltmeter does not extend to that frequency. Does it make me a subjective person? :)
 
---No not at all; but perhaps incomplete, so not fully accurate and totally reliable?
...In relation to real-life circumstances.

Not you, but the measurements in relation to real performance.

* Do you listen to music at realistic level sometimes, and only concentrated at 1kHz?
...From the full realistic audio spectrum (ten octaves).
 
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Here's a measurement you can try that will demonstrate the limited value of published specifications and what you read in the mags. Apply a 100 hz square wave to an amplifier input with nothing connected to the output. Hook up the output to an oscilloscope. What you'll probably see is a very good rise time and some small amount of tilt. The tilt indicates LF FR falloff. Now connect a speaker and see if the waveform changes. An increase in the tilt shows the low end response has dropped The speaker load is pulling down the amplifier's voltage. The lower the impedance the worst it will probably be. Try adding a second speaker in parallel if it's safe and see what happens. You may also see a notch appear. Try it with different speakers using the same amplifier. Try it at different gain settings. Try it with different amplifiers. Do you get different results? Look as the published specs for FR. They all look about the same. What does this experiment tell you? That even something as simple as FR specs and the usual measurements are misleading at best, possibly worthless. I'll bet the higher powered solid state amplifier with the biggest power transformer and largest capacitors comes out best. It's not the idea of measurements that's wrong, it's the adequacy of the one that are used. BTW trying to judge how any piece of equipment really performs based on measurements both alone on a test bench and in real use in a system is not for tyros. There should be lots of numbers, they all mean something, and there's no one or few numbers that can tell you decisively that component A is better than component B. It's just too complicated for such easy answers. Small wonder there's so much argument about which is better.
 
Here's a measurement you can try that will demonstrate the limited value of published specifications and what you read in the mags. Apply a 100 hz square wave to an amplifier input with nothing connected to the output. Hook up the output to an oscilloscope. What you'll probably see is a very good rise time and some small amount of tilt. The tilt indicates LF FR falloff. Now connect a speaker and see if the waveform changes. An increase in the tilt shows the low end response has dropped The speaker load is pulling down the amplifier's voltage. The lower the impedance the worst it will probably be. Try adding a second speaker in parallel if it's safe and see what happens. You may also see a notch appear. Try it with different speakers using the same amplifier. Try it at different gain settings. Try it with different amplifiers. Do you get different results? Look as the published specs for FR. They all look about the same. What does this experiment tell you? That even something as simple as FR specs and the usual measurements are misleading at best, possibly worthless. I'll bet the higher powered solid state amplifier with the biggest power transformer and largest capacitors comes out best. It's not the idea of measurements that's wrong, it's the adequacy of the one that are used. BTW trying to judge how any piece of equipment really performs based on measurements both alone on a test bench and in real use in a system is not for tyros. There should be lots of numbers, they all mean something, and there's no one or few numbers that can tell you decisively that component A is better than component B. It's just too complicated for such easy answers. Small wonder there's so much argument about which is better.

I agree with that. This has been my contention for many years. It isn't that what we hear can't be measured, if it exists at all then we are able to find ways to measure it. The current set of measurements is insufficient, we need to devise a different set of measurements. The current set does not tell much or to be kind enough to make valid choices.
 
I agree with that. This has been my contention for many years. It isn't that what we hear can't be measured, if it exists at all then we are able to find ways to measure it. The current set of measurements is insufficient, we need to devise a different set of measurements. The current set does not tell much or to be kind enough to make valid choices.

I thought this was established back at the beginning of this thread (for everyone except micro :confused:)?
 

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