Natural Sound

[morricab]

You’re right about other brands I’m only repeating Lamm’s recommendation for their products and living with the same amps for over 20 years in daily service.

david

Having had a number of amps that use the 6C33C tube (Silvaweld OTL reference monos, Wall Audio M50 PSET monos, Ayon Helios PSET and Ayon Spark SET) , I do not think that this is a good policy to leave an amp with this tube on all the time and will also lead to early failure of components within the amplifier due to the very high amount of heat that is generated by this tube (and also the GM70 gets damn hot as I know from my amp that uses this tube). Electrolytic capacitors will definitely like being left on all the time as the heat wears them out quickly and then they leak and ruin the circuit board. Two of these tubes per monoblock means that the chassis gets very hot after a couple of hours. You are unnecessarily shortening the life of the amps without much added sonic benefit. Add to that the 6C33C and GM70 are not terribly long lived tubes.

If the amp was using something like a 2A3 or maybe 300B, it might make sense as they don't get super hot and they tend to last a very long time.

 

[microstrip]

No he’s not, Lamm actually recommends leaving their gear on 24/7 unless one is away for while. According to Lamm the sudden surge of power from turn on will wear out the electronic components and tubes leaving them on prolongs their lifespan.

david

David,

24/7 means 8760 hours per year - this means two 6h30 tube sets per year!

The GM70 datasheet refers to 1000 hours lifetime, even if we increase it by a factor of 2 for using it at half the allowed plate dissipation it means a few of them per year!

 

[ddk]

David,

24/7 means 8760 hours per year - this means two 6h30 tube sets per year!

The GM70 datasheet refers to 1000 hours lifetime, even if we increase it by a factor of 2 for using it at half the allowed plate dissipation it means a few of them per year!

Problem with ML3 is the 6h30p I go through 7-8 sets a year.

Having had a number of amps that use the 6C33C tube (Silvaweld OTL reference monos, Wall Audio M50 PSET monos, Ayon Helios PSET and Ayon Spark SET) , I do not think that this is a good policy to leave an amp with this tube on all the time and will also lead to early failure of components within the amplifier due to the very high amount of heat that is generated by this tube (and also the GM70 gets damn hot as I know from my amp that uses this tube). Electrolytic capacitors will definitely like being left on all the time as the heat wears them out quickly and then they leak and ruin the circuit board. Two of these tubes per monoblock means that the chassis gets very hot after a couple of hours. You are unnecessarily shortening the life of the amps without much added sonic benefit. Add to that the 6C33C and GM70 are not terribly long lived tubes.

If the amp was using something like a 2A3 or maybe 300B, it might make sense as they don't get super hot and they tend to last a very long time.

Brad I go with own experience of Lamms and that of my clients, 23 years with the same pair of ML2s on all the the time.

david

 

[bonzo75]

If the amp was using something like a 2A3 or maybe 300B, it might make sense as they don't get super hot and they tend to last a very long time.

Yes but good 2a3 and 300b tubes are super expensive in comparison. So better to leave them off all the time rather than the other way round

 

[bazelio]

Having had a number of amps that use the 6C33C tube (Silvaweld OTL reference monos, Wall Audio M50 PSET monos, Ayon Helios PSET and Ayon Spark SET) , I do not think that this is a good policy to leave an amp with this tube on all the time and will also lead to early failure of components within the amplifier due to the very high amount of heat that is generated by this tube (and also the GM70 gets damn hot as I know from my amp that uses this tube). Electrolytic capacitors will definitely like being left on all the time as the heat wears them out quickly and then they leak and ruin the circuit board. Two of these tubes per monoblock means that the chassis gets very hot after a couple of hours. You are unnecessarily shortening the life of the amps without much added sonic benefit. Add to that the 6C33C and GM70 are not terribly long lived tubes.

If the amp was using something like a 2A3 or maybe 300B, it might make sense as they don't get super hot and they tend to last a very long time.

I have to agree with this. Leaving on the 6C33C 24/7 seems bonkers for all these reasons just to save on, what, a thermistor that could have been added internally to the mains for inrush current limiting?

 

[Atmasphere]

Hello Andy, I did not return the amps. I simply replaced the large tubes. These are the original ML2 amplifiers. They might be about 15-20 years old. I do not know how old the tubes were. I also leave all equipment on 24/7 and don’t know how that affects the age of the tubes.

@PeterA, @morricab is correct! If Lamm is telling you to leave the amp on 24/7, even in Standby, they are giving you bad advice.

That power tube runs very hot even if no B+ is applied (for the record we were the first manufacturer in the US to use that tube so I have more experience with this issue than I prefer)!!

It has a way of eating its tube socket and can easily outlast them- the tube itself is quite reliable. The socket however is not. The filament connections are what fails- essentially, the Russians used a socket meant for the 3C33 which is an American RF tube. The socket was underrated, not designed to handle that much current and so they fail.

In the MIG fighters that used that tube, the original Russian spec sheet instructs to replace the socket whenever the tube is replaced and in the Russian military this was 750 Hours (I have the original spec sheets; in the old days when we bought that tube, the socket was always included; eventually New Sensor figured that out and began removing the sockets from the tube box and selling them separately...).

So when you leave the amp on constantly, the time on the sockets is ticking down. They can go perhaps 3000 hours in good circumstances; you may or may not have to tighten the contacts on the sockets to do that, but once you have, its only a short while later that the socket will have to be replaced.

 

[morricab]

Problem with ML3 is the 6h30p I go through 7-8 sets a year.

Brad I go with own experience of Lamms and that of my clients, 23 years with the same pair of ML2s on all the the time.

david

Well, if you say and I might add you are then a very lucky man...I am sure there are many ML-2s out there in dire need of recapping if they followed this advice...makes very hesitant to consider a used one. The parts inside are nothing special and not immune to heat any more than any other high quality amp.
Do you buy the driver tubes from LAMM and what does he charge? I get good NOS ones from Germany for about 10 bucks each...

 

[microstrip]

Problem with ML3 is the 6h30p I go through 7-8 sets a year.

A pity buyers are not warned of it before getting it - this means 1000 hours life per set! We can get around 3000-4000 hours from the 6h30p in Audio Research and conrad johnson gear. Fortunately I have extensively measured a few spare sets I got from Lamm and I am able to match and burn-in my own quartets, but the average audiophile can't do it.

Curious if Tang and Steve also keep theirs on all the time.

BTW, how can we explain that Vladimir Lamm explicitly says we should replace the GM70 every 1.5 - 2year? Perhaps wrongly, but I assumed it was a typical time between general tube replacement in the ML3.

 

[ddk]

A pity buyers are not warned of it before getting it - this means 1000 hours life per set! We can get around 3000-4000 hours from the 6h30p in Audio Research and conrad johnson gear. Fortunately I have extensively measured a few spare sets I got from Lamm and I am able to match and burn-in my own quartets, but the average audiophile can't do it.

You definitely have an advantage there! I told Tang about them before he got his.

Curious if Tang and Steve also keep theirs on all the time.

They don't nor do I when it comes to ML3, they go with a big bang and can damage my drivers. My ML1 & ML2s never had this issue.

BTW, how can we explain that Vladimir Lamm explicitly says we should replace the GM70 every 1.5 - 2year? Perhaps wrongly, but I assumed it was a typical time between general tube replacement in the ML3.

Sorry but I don't understand the question are you saying the 1.5-2 years is too long or that they don't last that long?

david

 

[ddk]

Well, if you say and I might add you are then a very lucky man...I am sure there are many ML-2s out there in dire need of recapping if they followed this advice...makes very hesitant to consider a used one. The parts inside are nothing special and not immune to heat any more than any other high quality amp.
Do you buy the driver tubes from LAMM and what does he charge? I get good NOS ones from Germany for about 10 bucks each...

Of course there are component failures over the years but not many in need of recapping as you suggest nor anything that suggests failure is result of leaving the amps continuously on. I sold and installed many ML2s & ML1s so I know how they've kept up over the years.

I'm aware what 6330's go for on the open market but I get my sets from Lamm, less failures and better matched.

david

 

[tima]

A pity buyers are not warned of it before getting it - this means 1000 hours life per set! We can get around 3000-4000 hours from the 6h30p in Audio Research and conrad johnson gear. Fortunately I have extensively measured a few spare sets I got from Lamm and I am able to match and burn-in my own quartets, but the average audiophile can't do it.

6H30 -That's the lifespan I'm used to with ARC LS/Phono (10 tubes in either REF10) and it is a very reliable tube in their implementation. There's 8 in the LL1.1 pre - what lifespan do you see there? What tube tester do you use to measure them?

 

[Ron Resnick]

No worries Ron. I’m used to annoying questions. My gut is to follow Tim’s suggestion and just say I tried to describe what I heard, but here is my attempt at clarification.

1. The overall impression of the XPP is that it sounds quicker because there is slightly more emphasis on the leading edge and less on the decay. The duration of the notes sounds very slightly shorter. Of course the music is not faster but the impression is that the cellist is playing faster or in a slightly more aggressive style. The slight emphasis on the leading edge does not mean that the leading edge is more resolved or detailed it just means it sounds slightly louder.

2. The Grand Cru seems slightly more resolving. There is more nuance within each note and about the space in which the instruments are being played. The note and it’s development is both more complex and complete so I hear more detail. This degree of resolution and completion makes me feel more relaxed and the slightly less transient emphasis makes the music sound slightly more relaxed but not slower.

3. Flow is a weird word. Others use it so I tried to incorporate it in my description. Perhaps I will fail. The GC portrays the note more completely with less emphasis on the transient. The decays are longer and hang in space to interact and overlap with other notes from other instruments. This creates a better sense of nuance and with the added information retrieval and information about the space and spatial relationships between the instruments there is more ambience.
The music just seems to progress smoother a little bit better than with the XPP where the transient is more emphasized and the note is shorter and disappears.

These are all very subtle degrees and I am struggling with language to describe the differences between these cartridges which are actually very similar. The differences were much more pronounced when I compared the XPP to my old airtight supreme and MSL signature gold and when I compare the GC to the opus one and the atlas Lambda across various systems.

Those who have the Sme 3012R and adjust VTA with the playing cards will understand that once you get it into the right range of about 4-5 cards, the difference become quite subtle when adding or removing the cards. I find that I can very slightly change the character of the sound by very small movements. The differences I am describing are on that level. They may even have more to do with the set up on each arm then they do with inherent differences between the cartridges, though I do think the gold versus the platinum windings might account for some of it. I can also slightly change the sound of each cartridge with very small changes to the tracking force. Less force results in a more open sound but you sacrifice a little bit of weight. If the tracking force is too high the sound is closed in and you lose resolution, so it’s a real balancing act.

I also mentioned that the SUTs are slightly different and the external one has the extra phono cable. I made a recording of the same cartridge on the same arm going into the two different SUTs and David heard the subtle difference. So this is likely playing a role in the impressions also.

Anyway, I hope that clarifies it a bit. Without the two cartridges on identical arms on the same table allowing me to do direct comparisons within seconds, I’m not sure the subtle differences are very significant or meaningful for the enjoyment of the music. As I say, I like these cartridges both very much.

Thank you, Peter, for your extremely thoughtful and introspective reply!

I actually really do understand better from your answers in 1. and 2. what you meant originally. You have reconciled my questions about your use of the adjectives.

I kind of understand what you mean about flow in 3. I continue to find flow to be a somewhat confusing description.

Thank you, again!

 

[ddk]

6H30 -That's the lifespan I'm used to with ARC LS/Phono (10 tubes in either REF10) and it is a very reliable tube in their implementation. There's 8 in the LL1.1 pre - what lifespan do you see there? What tube tester do you use to measure them?

Years Tim but they do go microphonic it's only in the ML3 that they're somewhat undependable.

david

 

[PeterA]

Fellow member Al M. and I went to the Evensong service at my church this evening. They just dropped the mask mandate so I felt like going again. This is a small beautiful 300-year-old Episcopal church with a very nice organ just down the street from where I live.

It was really nice to listen to some organ and choir to recalibrate my ears to the sound of live music. The organ had so much air and weight and filled the church with energy. We were completely enveloped in the sound. The choir blended beautifully with the different notes of the organ and the voices were crystal clear and distinct from each other.

I also made note of just how sibilant the voices were as well as that of the Rector. And when I closed my eyes and listened to the Rector speak and then sing it was very easy to localized the origin of the sound but there was no sense of image or outline. The energy in the room was palpable, but not really dimensional. The locations of the sources of the sounds could be identified and then the energy simply expanded to fill the space and reflect off the boundaries. The lower notes resonated and I could feel the vibrations through my body.

The sensation was one of energy filling the room and the clarity and beauty of the music and the singing made for a very emotional experience. When I did at times actually focus on the sound itself, I did not find myself noticing black backgrounds, pinpoint imaging, or stark image outlines. There was energy, lots of air, beautiful and rich tone with weight.

I am now back sitting on my living room sofa, listening to some of Bach’s organ music and enjoying my new system. The goal is to get close to the live music experience that Al and I had earlier this evening, not just the sound but also the emotional impact. This new system gets me closer to this evening’s natural sound than I have been before in this room, and that is pretty thrilling.

 

[Al M.]

Excellent description, Peter, of the nice live music experience that we had this evening. Thanks for inviting me to join you, very enjoyable.

I would add that this was a more intimate sound experience than I usually experience in the larger churches I visit. The sound was less reverberant, and a bit drier than there, but still very spacious.

 

[treitz3]

It's about as "Natural" as you can get though...

Tom

 

[rando]

I am now back sitting on my living room sofa, listening to some of Bach’s organ music and enjoying my new system. The goal is to get close to the live music experience that Al and I had earlier this evening, not just the sound but also the emotional impact. This new system gets me closer to this evening’s natural sound than I have been before in this room, and that is pretty thrilling.

Peter, I know you might expect a request for album or pressing. For the sake of variety could I ask you to list organ(s) played as described on album. Sometimes these listings are quite explicit and thus relevant to the sound you are hearing.

If you happened to know a few specifics about organ you listened to today that would be a great aid as well.

 

[Ron Resnick]

That was a really wonderful and eloquent description and report, Peter. Thank you!

I am so happy for you that the new system is giving you so much joy and musical satisfaction!

 

[ctydwn]

Thank you Peter for that beautiful description that was equal parts intimate and cathartic as we look forward to more live music in such settings that have not been easy these past few years. And, congratulations too on finding an home environment that gets you as close to that thrilling sound! Looking forward to reading your posts here into the future.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, I know you might expect a request for album or pressing. For the sake of variety could I ask you to list organ(s) played as described on album. Sometimes these listings are quite explicit and thus relevant to the sound you are hearing.

If you happened to know a few specifics about organ you listened to today that would be a great aid as well.

Hello Rando,

I did find some information about and photographs of the organ at St. Michael's Episcopal Church, 1714.

Link: https://cbfisk.com/opus/opus-69/

I also found two videos of the organ being played.

1.

2.

The record to which I referred in my post is Bach's Trumpet, Philips 6500 925. It is terrific and the trumpet is also glorious.