Natural Sound

[tima]

The record to which I referred in my post is Bach's Trumpet, Philips 6500 925. It is terrific and the trumpet is also glorious.

The trumpet Bach holds on that album cover is called a post horn. It has no valves. Relatively easy to get sound from it and difficult to play well. The instrumentation for Mahler's 3rd Symphony includes a post horn.

Edit: speaking of organs, are you aware of the Methuen organ which had its origin in the Boston area? I think it now resides in the UK. There might be a museum for it in Boston. Several Telarc LPs with Michael Murray performing on it.

 

[rando]

I did find some information about and photographs of the organ at St. Michael's Episcopal Church, 1714.

Link: https://cbfisk.com/opus/opus-69/

I also found two videos of the organ being played.

Thanks for the insightful reply (+ recent videos) depicting what you and Al. M. heard on Sunday at your church. I feel rewarded for having asked.

Sitting in a 300 year old American building listening to an American made organ, even virtually! What a splendid and rare experience.

 

[PeterA]

@zerostargeneral recommended this LP: Joerg Demus playing Schumann, Westminster XWN 18061

 

[PeterA]

Some lovely Haydn: Les Concertos Pour Violon, Erato STU 70770

 

[Rensselaer]

Just out of curiosity, where are you hiding the interconnects from Pre-amplification to Power-amplification, and how long are they? Under the floorboards?

 

[PeterA]

Just out of curiosity, where are you hiding the interconnects from Pre-amplification to Power-amplification, and how long are they? Under the floorboards?

Yes, under the floorboards. They are 25 feet long, but I could’ve gone with 20 feet. 15 is too short. The cables were not available in 20 foot lengths. I compared them to the 15' lengths and heard no difference.

 

[awsmone]

The trumpet Bach holds on that album cover is called a post horn. It has no valves. Relatively easy to get sound from it and difficult to play well. The instrumentation for Mahler's 3rd Symphony includes a post horn.

Edit: speaking of organs, are you aware of the Methuen organ which had its origin in the Boston area? I think it now resides in the UK. There might be a museum for it in Boston. Several Telarc LPs with Michael Murray performing on it.

It’s is supposed to sound like a post horn, a post horn was as the name implied the horn played by the postie to announce mail arrival in Europe , the challenges todays orchestra have is what instrument to use to get the colour Mahler intended, nice video on this here

 

[PeterA]

I am in the process of upgrading the power delivery to my system. I made the following three changes a couple of years ago.

1. After owning and auditioning quite a few different audiophile power cords, I replaced them all with cheap Ching Cheng cords.

2. I then replaced the Furutech IEC connectors plugged into the gear directly connected to the in-wall wires with standard Hubbell industrial isolated ground receptacles.

EDIT: reverse the order of #1 and #2.

3. Replaced the 8 AWG JPS in-wall cables with standard industrial 10 AWG wires connected to the Hubbell receptacles.

Two weeks ago, my electrician came over to begin some more work in the basement. I had hoped to do all of this a couple of years ago, but after all of the planning, my electrician moved out of state, and then the virus hit and shut things down. I had to find a new electrician and we made a plan. David Karmeli advised us along the way.

The electrician installed a new 3/4" 8' copper grounding rod. I have ledge under my old house plus a small stream running the length of the basement under the concrete layer into a sump pump. We were able to find a location to ram it into the earth, under the stone and rubble foundation at a 45 degree angle. Fortunately, it is surrounded by moist soil. Imagine driving that rod into the ground at that angle in a dirty basement with a ceiling height of only 6'. Each blow from the sledge hammer moved it about 3/4". The process took almost an hour with the electrician and I taking turns swinging. We were exhausted, and he is half my age.

The electrician then shortened up the four dedicated wires to the audio system. These had all been an identical 22' long in my attempt to reduce ground hum. The panel is directly below my listening room. A few of the circuits had excess wire coiled up and hanging from the exposed ceiling joists. After he shorted the lengths of those wires, he left for the day. That evening I listened to see if I could notice any difference from the shorter wire. I heard a nice little improvement in the sound. It was cleaner with less grain and smoother overall. He said the coils increased inductance and was surprised I noticed an audible improvement.

The following day, the electrician hooked up the four ground wires from the four dedicated 30 amp circuits for the audio gear to the ground rod, separating them from the rest of the panel feeding the house. The main panel is grounded to the existing water pipe entering the basement. We then discussed future plans to improve the service further.

That evening I listened again and heard a more significant improvement to the sound of the system. Noise seemed lower, slightly noticeable with my ear inside the upper horn, but more significantly in the increase in information I heard through the system. There was also a perceived slight tonal shift, a change in the balance of the presentation, not major, but clearly audible. The very first thing I noticed was a more even frequency response and a filling in of the upper bass to lower midrange region, just below the 500 hz crossover point of my two way speakers and going down from there. The sound took on more weight and body. The next thing I noticed was an improvement to the acoustics of the recording venue. The scale and character of the space in which the musicians were playing became more evident and defined. Subtle stuff, but important for realism.

I have a demonstration LP where the conductor introduces the various instruments of the orchestra. They play their compass followed by a short music passage. There is a timpani demo with some Bach music. The energy and power of the instruments, the tension on the skins, and the hollowness of the sound, were all more evident and resolved. Choral music became more intelligible. Massed strings less thin with more body, and more beauty. Jazz cymbals sounded more like brass being struck by wood, less splashy and white, while metal brush work was more articulate, less "shushy". Larger scale orchestral works seemed to be in larger spaces and instrument locations are more defined. Perhaps the biggest improvement was from Bach organ music. The power and breath of the air moving through the pipes was more pronounced and natural sounding. This was a very worthwhile effort for the sonic gains. And relative to the cost of gear and even audiophile outlets and wire, it represents great value. I wish I had done it years ago.

The next plan is to install a new panel, separating the audio from the rest of the house. The feed will enter a new panel and the audio circuits will be moved from the old main panel to this new panel, so that they are first to see the power from the pole. The former main panel will become the new sub panel, supplying the rest of the house. We ran into some supply issues, so when the parts come in, the work will commence.

Here is a photo of the new ground rod being driven into the earth below my basement and house foundation near the water main, meter and sump pump.

 

[PeterA]

After listening to DDK‘s Neumann cartridge for four days, I decided to install the Technics moving magnet that he gave me when I bought the system.

This vintage cartridge does not have the high-end extension or the resolution of my Colibris, but it has a very nice sense of nuance and weight. I am astonished at the quality of the sound for the low price on the used market. Some of these older cartridges from the heyday of the vinyl era just have a rightness about them. They let you relax and just listen to the music.

 

[shakti]

After listening to DDK‘s Neumann cartridge for four days, I decided to install the Technics moving magnet that he gave me when I bought the system.

This vintage cartridge does not have the high-end extension or the resolution of my Colibris, but it has a very nice sense of nuance and weight. I am astonished at the quality of the sound for the low price on the used market. Some of these older cartridges from the heyday of the vinyl era just have a rightness about them. They let you relax and just listen to the music.

View attachment 92325

Shure V15 III, IV or V are in regular use in my turntables, I like the sound of this vintage MM carts. JICO has some interesting replacement parts too, for example, I like the wooden cantilevers for them, so a lot to play around for small money.

 

[morricab]

Shure V15 III, IV or V are in regular use in my turntables, I like the sound of this vintage MM carts. JICO has some interesting replacement parts too, for example, I like the wooden cantilevers for them, so a lot to play around for small money.

Try the AudioTechnica AT-150MLX. Not exactly vintage in this version but the design itself is quite old and sounds amazing with a good tube phonostage (it loves my Silvaweld phono).

 

[dwhistance]

After listening to DDK‘s Neumann cartridge for four days, I decided to install the Technics moving magnet that he gave me when I bought the system.

This vintage cartridge does not have the high-end extension or the resolution of my Colibris, but it has a very nice sense of nuance and weight. I am astonished at the quality of the sound for the low price on the used market. Some of these older cartridges from the heyday of the vinyl era just have a rightness about them. They let you relax and just listen to the music.

View attachment 92325

I loved the sound of my Technics EPC-205Mk3 though sadly the suspension is now starting to go, a relatively common problem with these cartridges. I'm hoping I can get it rebuilt but so far none of the usual suspects have been keen.

I also agree with Shakti on the Shure V15's. I have a III which I have used with both the original HE stylus and also the Jico wooden cantilevers with a nude conical tip. They sound very different but both sound great.

David Whistance

 

[awsmone]

I loved the sound of my Technics EPC-205Mk3 though sadly the suspension is now starting to go, a relatively common problem with these cartridges. I'm hoping I can get it rebuilt but so far none of the usual suspects have been keen.

I also agree with Shakti on the Shure V15's. I have a III which I have used with both the original HE stylus and also the Jico wooden cantilevers with a nude conical tip. They sound very different but both sound great.

David Whistance

I am intrigued by this cartridge there are a few different versions is it only this particular mk3 that has that special something ?

 

[jespera]

I also agree with Shakti on the Shure V15's. I have a III which I have used with both the original HE stylus and also the Jico wooden cantilevers with a nude conical tip. They sound very different but both sound great.

David Whistance

Please elaborate on the difference in sound of the two different jico needles.

Personally, i like the more robust shures such as m3d, sc35c and m35x. The sc35c equipped with an n35x needle is a particular house favorit.

 

[Folsom]

Interesting stuff Peter. Funny timing though... I had something related to ask you. Anyways, thanks for keeping us up to date on the goods. It's fun to see.

 

[PeterA]

Interesting stuff Peter. Funny timing though... I had something related to ask you. Anyways, thanks for keeping us up to date on the goods. It's fun to see.

You are most welcome, Folsom. Ask away! System threads are for interesting stuff.

 

[dwhistance]

I am intrigued by this cartridge there are a few different versions is it only this particular mk3 that has that special something ?

The mk4 is supposed to be very good as well though I haven't heard one. The mk2 is a good cartridge as well but not at the same level. This series of cartridges were developed during a time when phono replay was improving rapidly and big corporations, like Technics, were investing serious amounts of R&D. If I remember right the mk3 and mk4 were designed to be able to play a quadrophonic LP so had advanced tip shapes. Both also had serious multi layer cores, very light but stiff cantilevers and were cutting edge then and probably still are now. Despite supposed advances in technology as far as I know there are no cantilevers like these being made today and there probably won't be any in future. The same applies to the later versions of the Shure V15 (III onwards) which share a similar structure and tip shapes but are voiced differently.

One cartridge I am interested in trying is the Technics EPC 100 which is supposed to be even better than the 205 mk3. The only thing that has stopped me to date is the concern about sift suspension requiring a rebuild. If I could find someone who was willing to do this I'd have one in an instant.

David Whistance

 

[Alrainbow]

I am in the process of upgrading the power delivery to my system. I made the following three changes a couple of years ago.

1. After owning and auditioning quite a few different audiophile power cords, I replaced them all with cheap Ching Cheng cords.

2. I then replaced the Furutech IEC connectors plugged into the gear directly connected to the in-wall wires with standard Hubbell industrial isolated ground receptacles.

EDIT: reverse the order of #1 and #2.

3. Replaced the 8 AWG JPS in-wall cables with standard industrial 10 AWG wires connected to the Hubbell receptacles.

Two weeks ago, my electrician came over to begin some more work in the basement. I had hoped to do all of this a couple of years ago, but after all of the planning, my electrician moved out of state, and then the virus hit and shut things down. I had to find a new electrician and we made a plan. David Karmeli advised us along the way.

The electrician installed a new 3/4" 8' copper grounding rod. I have ledge under my old house plus a small stream running the length of the basement under the concrete layer into a sump pump. We were able to find a location to ram it into the earth, under the stone and rubble foundation at a 45 degree angle. Fortunately, it is surrounded by moist soil. Imagine driving that rod into the ground at that angle in a dirty basement with a ceiling height of only 6'. Each blow from the sledge hammer moved it about 3/4". The process took almost an hour with the electrician and I taking turns swinging. We were exhausted, and he is half my age.

The electrician then shortened up the four dedicated wires to the audio system. These had all been an identical 22' long in my attempt to reduce ground hum. The panel is directly below my listening room. A few of the circuits had excess wire coiled up and hanging from the exposed ceiling joists. After he shorted the lengths of those wires, he left for the day. That evening I listened to see if I could notice any difference from the shorter wire. I heard a nice little improvement in the sound. It was cleaner with less grain and smoother overall. He said the coils increased inductance and was surprised I noticed an audible improvement.

The following day, the electrician hooked up the four ground wires from the four dedicated 30 amp circuits for the audio gear to the ground rod, separating them from the rest of the panel feeding the house. The main panel is grounded to the existing water pipe entering the basement. We then discussed future plans to improve the service further.

That evening I listened again and heard a more significant improvement to the sound of the system. Noise seemed lower, slightly noticeable with my ear inside the upper horn, but more significantly in the increase in information I heard through the system. There was also a perceived slight tonal shift, a change in the balance of the presentation, not major, but clearly audible. The very first thing I noticed was a more even frequency response and a filling in of the upper bass to lower midrange region, just below the 500 hz crossover point of my two way speakers and going down from there. The sound took on more weight and body. The next thing I noticed was an improvement to the acoustics of the recording venue. The scale and character of the space in which the musicians were playing became more evident and defined. Subtle stuff, but important for realism.

I have a demonstration LP where the conductor introduces the various instruments of the orchestra. They play their compass followed by a short music passage. There is a timpani demo with some Bach music. The energy and power of the instruments, the tension on the skins, and the hollowness of the sound, were all more evident and resolved. Choral music became more intelligible. Massed strings less thin with more body, and more beauty. Jazz cymbals sounded more like brass being struck by wood, less splashy and white, while metal brush work was more articulate, less "shushy". Larger scale orchestral works seemed to be in larger spaces and instrument locations are more defined. Perhaps the biggest improvement was from Bach organ music. The power and breath of the air moving through the pipes was more pronounced and natural sounding. This was a very worthwhile effort for the sonic gains. And relative to the cost of gear and even audiophile outlets and wire, it represents great value. I wish I had done it years ago.

The next plan is to install a new panel, separating the audio from the rest of the house. The feed will enter a new panel and the audio circuits will be moved from the old main panel to this new panel, so that they are first to see the power from the pole. The former main panel will become the new sub panel, supplying the rest of the house. We ran into some supply issues, so when the parts come in, the work will commence.

Here is a photo of the new ground rod being driven into the earth below my basement and house foundation near the water main, meter and sump pump.

View attachment 92312

If the circuits mentioned are 120 volt making the ground to a rod that’s isolated to main panel ground where the neutral your using is bonded to the ground used in the panel , this adds ground paths. but if it sounds better thats what matters more. are the circuits used all on the same phase in the panel ? if not this may improve things more. also try running a 6 gauge wire from the new ground rod to the panel neutral bar if it’s bonded in the panel. it should be if it’s the main panel and has a main breaker
might see a green screw and wire going to it’s own rod and your water main.
making things perfect by code does not always make for the best sound at times.
sounds nice in the videos

 

[PeterA]

If the circuits mentioned are 120 volt making the ground to a rod that’s isolated to main panel ground where the neutral your using is bonded to the ground used in the panel , this adds ground paths. but if it sounds better thats what matters more. are the circuits used all on the same phase in the panel ? if not this may improve things more. also try running a 6 gauge wire from the new ground rod to the panel neutral bar if it’s bonded in the panel. it should be if it’s the main panel and has a main breaker
might see a green screw and wire going to it’s own rod and your water main.
making things perfect by code does not always make for the best sound at times.
sounds nice in the videos

Thank you Alan. The four audio circuits are all on the same phase and opposite the noise generating refrigerator and other heavy appliances. Yes I did notice quite an improvement in sound quality.

This stage is only temporary. Next week my electrician will come back and install a new panel that will separate the four audio circuits. At that point, The former main panel powering the rest of the house will be grounded to the water supply line. The smaller new panel which will be first in line from the meter will be grounded to the copper rod. It will be interesting to see if there is an improvement separating things out. So far, I have found that everything matters, and as King Rex discusses, power delivery is the foundation of the system and must be well sorted out for good sound. I just wish I had addressed it earlier.

 

[Atmasphere]

This stage is only temporary. Next week my electrician will come back and install a new panel that will separate the four audio circuits. At that point, The former main panel powering the rest of the house will be grounded to the water supply line. The smaller new panel which will be first in line from the meter will be grounded to the copper rod. It will be interesting to see if there is an improvement separating things out. So far, I have found that everything matters, and as King Rex discusses, power delivery is the foundation of the system and must be well sorted out for good sound. I just wish I had addressed it earlier.

FWIW dept.: If the equipment in the system has a properly designed grounding system , you'll find that it sounds better and the need for a ground post is eliminated.

To me EU directives and UL certification, if there is a metal chassis exposed it must be electrically grounded. Traditionally this issue has not been met well with high end audio designers, who have resorted to a variety of solutions all of which deal in one way or the other with preventing ground loops. Some solutions are really old-school, like simply not grounding the chassis thru the power cord. As a result, while you may not hear an outright buzz in the speakers, a ground loop can cause low level intermodulations and increased noise floor. Sometimes this appears solved or 'improved' by the use of novel solutions, the ground post being one of them.

In high end audio, grounding may well be one of the least understood design issues in an amp or preamp as it can be quite a bit more complex than it appears!!