They also the opposite of a wave form as you'd imagine if the driver is larger than the throat.
Natural Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
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They also the opposite of a wave form as you'd imagine if the driver is larger than the throat.
Good point. The horn in my Vitavox covering 500 Hz and up has controlled directivity and a rectangular mouth. It’s interesting because my room is almost square and because the speakers are corner horns, they aim at the opposite rear corners of my room and reflections are broken by those corners and much delayed from the direct sound at the listening seat. I don’t seem to have conventional first reflections as I did with my other speakers. At least that’s what I think is going on. I like the result.
Side walls are often the danger that many speakers face. Since the early reflections of a side wall are interpreted by the ear as harshness, a rectangular horn can be quite helpful!
I also found with my former speakers and friends cone in a box speakers, orienting the speakers straight ahead or with minimal toe in can also allow the speakers to be located further from the side walls. This alters the time arrival between direct sound and reflected sound and I usually find the music sounds more natural. There also seems to be more weight and a richer tone with better dynamics and a larger listening area.
It depends. There are many parameters to consider when it comes to the amount of toe-in. What works in one room/system may not work in another. There are no fixed rules.
Having said that, I agree that lowering the amount of toe-in can have advantages.
Of course it depends Al. I am sharing my observations about each time I have tried it or heard it elsewhere. My results have been very consistent. You have different preferences and it seems a different target, resulting in different set up choices and gear. It is what makes the hobby fascinating.
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There may be some instances where it depends on the room, but I’ve heard a variety of speakers sound most natural to me when they are oriented straight ahead. That is large and small speakers, cones and horns in a very large room, both wide and long and high. Also, in a very small room, both narrow, short, and low. These were rectangular. In my room, which is on the small side, the room is almost square with a low ceiling, hardly ideal. I also heard it in a very oddly shaped open space with angled walls, none of which were perpendicular.
So I suppose one might find some instances where the room matter most, but I would suggest that it depends more on the speaker type and radiation pattern. The discussion got started when Ralph mentioned the directionality of rectangular horns being an advantage. The speaker set up guides that recommend toe in do not usually include a description of various room types as far as I know.
I think it depends most on the listener’s preferences and target.
We can expect that toe-in depends on the speaker frequency and dispersion characteristics, as well as in the room characteristics. Systematically finding that all speakers one has experienced sound better oriented in straight mode suggests a lost opportunity to play in the lottery or a a strong bias!
Many modern speakers will sound muffled in perfect straight mode, as they are designed to follow the popular Harman curve.
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The designer of my speakers never suggested to me that I should try straight toe-out, including when he was visiting me at my place.
Elon Wolf recommends toe in too. I found it easier and quicker. However, the Magico Q3 in my room and the Magico MPro I reoriented in Madfloyd’s room both sounded more natural to me oriented straight ahead. Ian moved it back at some point. I do not know how the other speakers I heard. I recommended to be set up. I would be curious to know if others have actually made the comparison or simply follow the conventional wisdom.
As I wrote earlier, the listener’s preference, the type of sound he is after, is what usually dictates set up. It should not really matter to anyone but the listener.
I agree that it is helpful to know the characteristics of the speaker to help guide the set up.
As does the Wilson setup protocol. I've used toe-in on every system I've had and it took meticulous time to dial in the angles. Until the one I have now -- with which I have a new perspective on what I want and what is possible. My M9500s sit parallel to the back wall -- same as I heard when I auditioned them.
This is just an amazing thread. I have enjoyed reading the first posts by Peter numerous times with great joy.
I don't mean to interrupt this thread, but it seems that going out on a tangent is allowed.
I'm contemplating to build my own speaker, but with great assistance from talented friends, and I'm fond of the idea of having a horn. I see that there are circular horns, multicell horns and rectangular horns. I was recommended to look into Klangfilm 302 horns which are rectangular, but I have also been very fascinated with the modern, bone-white colored horns by Le Cleac'h (Azurahorn). Can someone please elaborate on the main differences? I have a rather small listening room (25 m2 with high ceilings).
I don't mean to interrupt this thread, but it seems that going out on a tangent is allowed.
I'm contemplating to build my own speaker, but with great assistance from talented friends, and I'm fond of the idea of having a horn. I see that there are circular horns, multicell horns and rectangular horns. I was recommended to look into Klangfilm 302 horns which are rectangular, but I have also been very fascinated with the modern, bone-white colored horns by Le Cleac'h (Azurahorn). Can someone please elaborate on the main differences? I have a rather small listening room (25 m2 with high ceilings).
I suggest you start your own thread on your topic as you will get more people to see it than might discover it here. There may be a very broad range of responses that will take Peter's thread even further off topic.
Alon Musk is straight on
Greg Timbers horn design of the M9500's had a constant directivity that provided wide, controlled dispersion that did not change with frequency. Probably toe-in is not critical.
Current speakers have mostly frequency controlled dispersion.
Yes. I heard your speakers in both David’s small room and large room and in both cases, they were oriented straight ahead and sounded great, though better to me in the large room. This controlled directivity mentioned by Ralph seems to be an advantage for this kind of rectangular horn. But I’ve also preferred a similar set up with more conventional cone in box speakers. The set up can really affect the presentation and it depends on what the listener prefers.
I am so glad you’ve enjoyed reading my thread. Good luck with your speaker project.
So @PeterA , 343 pages of rhetoric in , Do you feel that you are any closer to your goal in deifying the teachings of your leader Karmelli with regard to *His* and your vision of “Natural Sound” within this forum ? Which for my part this formula consists of Coloured Lamm electronics … Coloured tonearm unless modified , Coloured pickup cartridges , and in particular Coloured corner horn transducers ? My caviat …. I fully recognise that your system will transcript an efficacious and enjoyable representation of a Matt Munro recording … However “Natural Sound” as you define your goal in producing an audible reproduction , within your room, close to the live event ? I am sorry to say that you are deluding yourself , Particularly where the more exacting symphonic classical recordings are concerned
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