Natural Sound

[Ron Resnick]

I am a huge fan of Lamm electronics. I have often said that if I had not gotten involved with the Aesthetix Io very early on and wanted (back then) all-tube amplifiers I would have developed an all-Lamm system.

But I don't think there is any unique Russian academic aural research (or crash-landed alien technology) coded into Lamm's schematics. Lamm designed fantastic sounding SET electronics. Other companies also make fantastic sounding SET electronics.

A direct comparison of Lamm with, for example, Aries Cerat, NAT, Trafomatic and Viva would be very interesting.

 

[PeterA]

I am a huge fan of Lamm electronics. I have often said that if I had not gotten involved with the Aesthetix Io very early on and wanted (back then) all-tube amplifiers I would have developed an all-Lamm system.

But I don't think there is any unique Russian academic aural research (or crash-landed alien technology) coded into Lamm's schematics. Lamm designed fantastic sounding SET electronics. Other companies also make fantastic sounding SET electronics.

Ron, can you suggest a single tube amp that sounds like an ML2 or an ML3? I am not suggesting that there are no other great tube amps, nor that Lamm is the best. I would simply like you or anyone to suggest an alternative that sounds even similar.

 

[tima]

But I don't think there is any unique Russian academic aural research (or crash-landed alien technology) coded into Lamm's schematics.

Why do you think this?

Whle he had a university background in solid-state physics and semiconductor design,
Lamm's work on sound came out of his military service and post military service in industry, not out of a university. I don't understand this latest binge to re-write his life history.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, can you suggest a single tube amp that sounds like an ML2 or an ML3? I am not suggesting that there are no other great tube amps, nor that Lamm is the best. I would simply like you or anyone to suggest an alternative that sounds even similar.

I've never had an ML2 or an ML3 side-by-side with an SET amplifier from one of the companies I mentioned. My point is that I expect to hear subtle differences; I don't expect there to be a chasm of differences.

I don't expect an ML2 or an ML3 to be wildly more believable and wholly qualitatively different than the competitors with the same power level and the same SET topology.

 

[PeterA]

I've never had an ML2 or an ML3 side-by-side with an SET amplifier from one of the companies I mentioned. My point is that I expect to hear subtle differences; I don't expect there to be a chasm of differences.

I don't expect an ML2 or an ML3 to be wildly more believable and wholly qualitatively different than the competitors with the same power level and the same SET topology.

It is just curious to me that people like Lamm SETs but claim they are not unusual or difficult to design, and yet I keep asking for a single alternative that sounds similar and no one can suggest anything.

Steve Williams has said that he will die with his Lamms. I have bought back ups of all of my electronics because I have not heard alternatives that sound close enough for me. DDK says there is nothing that sounds similar to him.

 

[tima]

It is just curious to me that people like Lamm SETs but claim they are not unusual or difficult to design, and yet I keep asking for a single alternative that sounds similar and no one can suggest anything.

It's cheeky life in the salon -- don't expect too much.

 

[Holmz]

I simply listened to his gear and heard something I l

IMO it looks suspiciously rusty ... But I am not a socket expert!

View attachment 162482

Vlad Lamm or Vlad the impaler?

 

[morricab]

As always, the product should speak for itself.

I am all for understanding what makes the product unique - technically - but a little tired of reading the kind of platitudes stated in that post.

Have you heard Lamm gear?

 

[hopkins]

Have you heard Lamm gear?

No, but I am not commenting on the sound...

 

[morricab]

He created a great circuit for his ML2 but did you know his solid state amps are simply a copy of a Mark Levinson circuit design with a tube in the output stage?

Lamm's "research" has never been published and is obviously no more thank marketing double speak.

Lamm’s hybrid amp has the tube somewhere in a middle stage of the smp, not the output. I was never impressed with the sound of their hybrid amps. The ML2 is quite good, if a bit darkish in tonality.

 

[morricab]

Have you heard Lamm gear?

My point is that if you haven’t heard Lamm products then you can’t know if it speaks for itself or not. While it might not be to everyone’s taste, there is a fundamental rightness to their best products that shows some serious thinking went into the sound. To my ears they tend to err on the darkish side tonally but otherwise excellent (at least the all tube amps).

 

[morricab]

No Jeff, I did not know that. Which Lamm and which Mark Levinson amps do you mean? I had the M1.1 hybrid driving my Magicos for a while and they sounded great. The few times I heard Mark Levinson amps, the systems sounded a bit dark.

You make it sound as though his designs could be easily copied. Are you aware of any other brand of amplifiers that sound similar enough to Lamm that they can be used as a substitute?

I do not know anything about Lamm’s research, and did not investigate before I bought his gear. I simply listened to his gear and heard something I liked.

The M1.1 also sounds a bit dark.

 

[morricab]

I am a huge fan of Lamm electronics. I have often said that if I had not gotten involved with the Aesthetix Io very early on and wanted (back then) all-tube amplifiers I would have developed an all-Lamm system.

But I don't think there is any unique Russian academic aural research (or crash-landed alien technology) coded into Lamm's schematics. Lamm designed fantastic sounding SET electronics. Other companies also make fantastic sounding SET electronics.

A direct comparison of Lamm with, for example, Aries Cerat, NAT, Trafomatic and Viva would be very interesting.

Aries Cerat and NAT are both less ‘dark’ sounding but both have very solid foundations to the sound. Here we refer to AC as ‘architectural’ in how well it builds a foundation and structures the soundstage. Lamm is good this way too and has excellent dynamics but is not as open up top, thus the darkish quality. The Vivas I have heard were more the classic warm sounding SET, AC, NAT and Trafomatic are making a more neutral, less bloomy sound.

 

[tima]

Vlad Lamm or Vlad the impaler?

Romanians don't like to be confused with Russians and vice versa.

 

[bonzo75]

Lamm’s hybrid amp has the tube somewhere in a middle stage of the smp, not the output. I was never impressed with the sound of their hybrid amps. The ML2 is quite good, if a bit darkish in tonality.

The hybrid amp is not good sonically. I have heard 4 amps on the Sigma MAAT of which it was by far the least good, and TZBC has heard many amps on the Sigma he also had the Lamm hybrids and likes it the least. Koda, Kondo, and NAT were the 3 other amps I heard

 

[hopkins]

My point is that if you haven’t heard Lamm products then you can’t know if it speaks for itself or not. While it might not be to everyone’s taste, there is a fundamental rightness to their best products that shows some serious thinking went into the sound. To my ears they tend to err on the darkish side tonally but otherwise excellent (at least the all tube amps).

Again, I was just commenting on the mumbo-jumbo not on the actual performance.

 

[morricab]

Again, I was just commenting on the mumbo-jumbo not on the actual performance.

My point, again, is how do you separate fact from ‘mumbo jumbo’ if you haven’t heard them or don’t know anything about the design philosophy? What qualifications do you have to declare something ‘mumbo jumbo’?

 

[hopkins]

My point, again, is how do you separate fact from ‘mumbo jumbo’ if you haven’t heard them or don’t know anything about the design philosophy? What qualifications do you have to declare something ‘mumbo jumbo’?

You are relentless.

Comparison to live music is not a "design philosophy".

Explaining that a manufacturer designs a product based on their experience of live music is totally useless. We obviously all listen based on our experience and idea of what things should sound like. If I had a dime for every audiophile that explains they use live music as a reference I would be rich. Everyone uses live music, starting with the instrument we hear every day - vocals. It is inevitable.

This is common sense. No qualifications are needed to understand this, it is obvious.

 

[morricab]

You are relentless.

Comparison to live music is not a "design philosophy".

Explaining that a manufacturer designs a product based on their experience of live music is totally useless. We obviously all listen based on our experience and idea of what things should sound like. If I had a dime for every audiophile that explains they use live music as a reference I would be rich. Everyone uses live music, starting with the instrument we hear every day - vocals. It is inevitable.

This is common sense. No qualifications are needed to understand this, it is obvious.

I am relentless because you continue not to get it.

I see now you have a complete misunderstanding about Lamm’s stated design philosophy! He is on record stating that he designs to match a model of human hearing and perception, which he supposedly developed back in the USSR. Measurements are made to make sure products conform to model ideals. So, not at all based on subjective, “It sounds like live music”. I think he claimed that he doesn’t even listen to the finished product, it just has to conform to the model. Now, one can question the model validity for sure but device tuning was to match what the model predicts , not individual subjectivity.

 

[PeterA]

The M1.1 also sounds a bit dark.

We have different perceptions about this. What matters to me is the final listening assessment in my room. It did not sound dark in my system through the Magico Q3. It did not sound dark when I heard the amplifiers in Utah. It does not sound dark on Tim’s videos when he uses the amplifier instead of the ML2. To me.

We all listen to various things, use different references, and compare relative strengths and weaknesses, and then make our choices. I do not know how they compare to the amplifiers you represent as I’ve not heard Aries Cerat.