More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

[PeterA]

IMO. it takes some $ to have a serious CD playback system that gets near vInyl.

….

By the time I add our Line Stage, DAC, and Transport together I’m 160-180k (Depending on the DAC we choose). Of course the Line Stage and DAC is used with streaming as well. A good Transport like the Vitus MP or the Kalista Dream Play X only runs 40-70k. Out of these two we enjoy the Vitus the most.

Thanks Joe, but for a change I wasn’t referencing vinyl in any way.

Wow, I had no idea digital could get that expensive with the exception of Wadax. It shows what I know.

 

[Gregadd]

I do not think that "compression" can be fixed by a streamer. But PS Audio claim that streamed music via their recently launched streamer is on par to local files.

Matt

If that is true, he has no substantive criticism.

 

[rando]

It would certainly be a good thing if the streaming services could provide the provenance of the files. Then we could have a much better understanding why one file sounds crappy and another sounds great.

The official line repeated with little variation by Qobuz has always been they would love to cede to demands for: rather detailed provenance, booklets, ancillary information key to understanding addition or subtraction of elements, and so on.

The so on might include a small note on why a file is so actively added/edited/removed/relocated/relabeled... trading of rights is robust at this juncture. As are artist rights owner's business activities surrounding conditions and arrangements their files are made available through.

My experience concurs fully with Elliot G's conversation with DS (and his staff) as well as correspondence with numerous people more directly charged with international business from their HQ in France. It is the most imperfect music streaming service and by far the one most closely aligned with our interests.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Properly setup Good audio systems show us more contrast between formats (plz check Audionote UK peter article about comparison by contrast), when you compare stream vs CD then the first important thing is how those two formats (stream vs CD) are different in your system.
If you hear less than 10% difference between two formats (stream vs CD) then your system is not so transparent and your test is not valid.
if you hear more than 30% difference then your judgment will be more close to truth.

I think in a transparent system the CEC TL0 3.0 CD transport easily beats all streamers .

Good file/stream playback systems like wadax are not cheap and finally we do not get better sound than CD at the same price level.

it's certainly fortunate that these "facts" are given to us about "all" digital products and what we should hear in every system or it's "not so transparent".

is this also written in stone?

no reason to post about streaming any longer. it's been decreed how it goes.

 

[Elliot G.]

it's certainly fortunate that these "facts" are given to us about "all" digital products and what we should hear in every system or it's "not so transparent".

is this also written in stone?

no reason to post about streaming any longer. it's been decreed how it goes.

Without these posters actually hearing what's possible rather than what they have or like these declarative statements of "absolute sound" are just outlandish.
I know what I heard at your home Mike and I know what I hear in my room. I have had high end transports here and at shows.
Wadax loaned me there atlantis X last year at Capfest, I have used the Esoteric and the Metronome.
Wadax will introduce a Reference Transport this year.
I have heard the difference between a CD and A CD that I or one of my friends have ripped numerous times....


How many "one man survey's " on WBF are we going to see?

 

[Elliot G.]

Thanks Joe, but for a change I wasn’t referencing vinyl in any way.

Wow, I had no idea digital could get that expensive with the exception of Wadax. It shows what I know.

Just for your information. a dCS stack is over 100k,an MSB select Two with all the toys is also over 100k and neither of them have a server, they can stream, but need storage, like a Taiko or someother choice. A Wadax system is around 250k and more with the new Server PS available soon and the new power cables. They also will have a Reference series super transport available sometime in 2023 and I expect that to be six figures.
About the price of an Air Force 0 for the whole deal

 

[microstrip]

Take a look at Post #241, below I have put in bold the word physical.

"A little bit of topic but regarding physical medium sales i think vinyl is the winner.
If i look at the shops these days half of the shop is filled with vinyl the rest CD s."

And how much of this shop is filled with vinyl that has not gone through a digital phase?
In some of our local shops I would say 0%.

 

[microstrip]

I am asking about music from streaming services like Qobuz. Thank you.

Are you including DSD and HiRez, something that does not exist in CD media?

 

[7ryder]

Take a look at Post #241, below I have put in bold the word physical.

"A little bit of topic but regarding physical medium sales i think vinyl is the winner.
If i look at the shops these days half of the shop is filled with vinyl the rest CD s."

Oops, you're right. Sorry!

 

[PeterA]

Are you including DSD and HiRez, something that does not exist in CD media?

Francisco, when asking the question I had no idea it was so complicated and there were so many options. I was just thinking of “streaming“ generally like in the thread title and discussed in the video.

 

[7ryder]

I do not think that "compression" can be fixed by a streamer. But PS Audio claim that streamed music via their recently launched streamer is on par to local files.

Matt

Of course they do but I stopped listening to anything Paul says after I bought their first Perfectwave DAC with the optional bridge that allowed streaming over a network.

It was worked OK, but didn't have gapless playback. When I complained, Paul said he didn't know what gapless playback was and, because the bridge didn't have enough memory, they couldn't add it. At the time, my Sonos zone players did gapless, so how they could release a product like this and not know about gapless, well, that's beyond me. That was the last time I bought anything from PS Audio.

Chris

 

[microstrip]

Francisco, when asking the question I had no idea it was so complicated and there were so many options. I was just thinking of “streaming“ generally like in the thread title and discussed in the video.

Than I would say that current Qobuz streaming can easily have the quality of typical CD transports. Surely my old Calypso Metronome - the modern version of the original Kalista - sounded different from any streamer. But it also sounded different from any other CD transport.

 

[bryans]

Wow, I had no idea digital could get that expensive with the exception of Wadax. It shows what I know.

No it doesn't take a lot of money for digital or anything else. We just spend a lot of money on it.

 

[TooCool4]

Oops, you're right. Sorry!

 

[PeterA]

No it doesn't take a lot of money for digital or anything else. We just spend a lot of money on it.

Right. I said it could get expensive but I never said it had to be expensive. It’s just that some of the discussion keeps mentioning the expensive WADAX and people seem to keep pointing to expensive options when discussing the streaming.

 

[dminches]

Right. I said it could get expensive but I never said it had to be expensive. It’s just that some of the discussion keeps mentioning the expensive WADAX and people seem to keep pointing to expensive options when discussing the streaming.

I estimated about $25k which isn’t expensive (compared to your vinyl setup). As you know there is a wide range of costs.

 

[ddk]

I am talking about all the Audiophile remasters of albums primarily. Mustaches on the Mona Lisa. Will the real Dark Side of the Moon please stand up?

Thank you for the clarification, the answer to your previous question is no. Remastering has nothing to do with thicknesses and vinyl formulation of production. There was no need for unification either we have decades of fantastic LPs from a variety of sources, formulations and thicknesses. There "audiophile" remastered tape, CD and other digital media.

and every pressing of every record from every company varies in make up, thickness and material make up. Isnt this why the whole remastered industry began?

david

 

[bonzo75]

Properly setup Good audio systems show us more contrast between formats (plz check Audionote UK peter article about comparison by contrast), when you compare stream vs CD then the first important thing is how those two formats (stream vs CD) are different in your system.
If you hear less than 10% difference between two formats (stream vs CD) then your system is not so transparent and your test is not valid.
if you hear more than 30% difference then your judgment will be more close to truth.

I think in a transparent system the CEC TL0 3.0 CD transport easily beats all streamers .

Good file/stream playback systems like wadax are not cheap and finally we do not get better sound than CD at the same price level.

your TAD speakers are one of the least transparent, completely coloured by heavy cables and the complex SS electronics required to bring them to life

 

[bonzo75]

Right. I said it could get expensive but I never said it had to be expensive. It’s just that some of the discussion keeps mentioning the expensive WADAX and people seem to keep pointing to expensive options when discussing the streaming.

yes but often Analog playback discussions also make people think you need 100k or more TTs. Is the same. And then someone will say even a low priced TT will do. It won’t. People usually take one extreme or the other in discussions

 

[Amir]

your TAD speakers are one of the least transparent, completely coloured by heavy cables and the complex SS electronics required to bring them to life

this topic is not about TAD Transparency , It is about File/Streaming vs CD .


I have compared File/Stream vs CD in many systems not only in TAD system.
For example In CEC/Weiss/Vitus/Skogrand/WilsonAlexandria or CEC/AN-DAC5/Audiopax/LivingVoice or ...
I have spend more than 1000 hours to see what is possible in file/stream playback .

Clark Johnsen (his book is about Polarity) did not like writing Reviews , we can learn from Clark Johnsen why most judgments and reviews and ideas is not valid in Audio. Internet is full of different ideas about sound but very few ideas are Valid.

The real problem of audio reviews or any idea about any subject in Audio is two things:
first : we have many variables (like room acoustics , speaker place, matching, impedance matching, voltage level matching, ground loops, AC quality, amplifier speaker matching, room speaker intraction) that you can not compare two audio device in equal condition.
Only Clark Johnsen and Roy gregory pointed about this problem if i am not mistaken.
For example you can not review/compare two speakers without finding best match amplifier for each of them. You also need match acoustic (room) for each speaker and speaker placement is very very critical. It means if you want compare two amplifier or two speaker then you should compare two complete different systems in two different rooms and ...
Another example : If you put your speaker in neutral zoon to have least intraction with room then after changing your amplifier you should change speaker position.
all magazine reviews and all audiophile ideas about X vs Y is in one system and this does not mean equal test condition.

second: most audio systems are not properly optimized , this problem decrease transparency and most audio judgments come from audio systems that shows difference of A vs B less than 5% .
If your system shows huge difference/contrast between File/stream vs CD then it means your system is transparent enough to judge file vs CD .

Finally audio judgment is not as easy as audiophiles think