(Mods: Please delete this thread, thanks)

[BillK]

(Content removed)

 

[Another Johnson]

Sorry that you’re going through this. I once bought a pair of flagship monoblocks from a famous small manufacturer. They had an inherent design flaw in the way that they handled ground. I had a LOT of interaction with the selling dealer and the CEO. Very nice people. Tried to help. The solution was a bandaid that never satisfied me.

After four years I sold them to a technician for less than half of what I had in them with full disclosure. He wanted them and was sure he could get to the bottom of the problem. He found two manufacturing defects that he repaired, but the problem persisted until he used the same bandaid I had had to use (plug everything into the same duplex outlet with a power strip).

I moved on to other gear from larger companies… and am very happy to be rid of the problems.

If you could get a refund minus a restocking fee, that would be very nice. I hope they will consider that as a solution. The peace of mind that comes by moving on is priceless.

FWIW, I’ve owned many turntables over the years. Many of them have been headaches to sort out. It comes with the territory. I am using a Lyra Etna Lambda, ARC Reference Phono 3SE, and my all time favorite high spec LP12 set up by Thomas O’Keefe. I love this table. It has always been a joy through nearly 40 years of factory upgrades.
Best of luck.

 

[Barry2013]

How frustrating and disappointing.
I think the advice you have received not to go public is probably right at this stage, but unless you can get a definitive response from the manufacturer as to what they will do to resolve the problem then you may need to advise them that you will go public unless they make you a reasonable offer.
Is there any way you can find and contact other owners of this turntable to establish if they too are experiencing the same problem? If that is the case you and the others will have considerably more leverage and clout with the manufacturer. Not familiar with the laws on consumer protection where you are, but I am pretty sure a decent lawyer would know the way forward and a group action would be less expensive and a much more potent threat to the manufacturer.
I am a very satisfied owner of a J Sikora standard line turntable and the KV1200 tonearm, Really great sound and the more expensive four motor model I am told, including posts on this forum, is a big step up from the Standard Line.
Hope that helps.

 

[PeterA]

That’s quite a story. I will try to do get it back to the manufacturer at a small loss. Failing that I would use it for 33 and buy the technics direct drive or better a used Denon direct drive or something else for 45s. That sucks.

Do you actually hear it when playing the record or is it only during the silent space between tracks? I am shocked the manufacturer did not hear this at 45 RPM. You don’t really want to start putting isolation under the arm board or something that reduces rigidity or the original design for draining residences.

 

[thekong]

Sorry to hear you are in such a situation! I agree with other posters that you should try to get a refund, with a small lost if necessary.

However, if everything fails, I would consider using a separate arm pot as you have tried, which solved the problem (I am assuming you didn’t hear a deterioration in sounding quality with the set up). Yes, it may not not be ideal theoretically, but some top TTs, including the Kuzma XL, use such set up with great results.

Since you mentioned you like the sound of that TT other than the vibration issues, this may be an acceptable, if not ideal, option.

Best of luck.

PS. I am also assuming it is not a suspended TT, if it is, please consider my suggestion irrelevant, sorry!

 

[PeterA]

You mentioned that it is a belt drive turntable Without knowing the turntable, I can’t know if this is a possibility. Rather than trying an outboard arm pod, would it be possible to try an outboard motor with a long thread around the platter? You might be able to get a really good motor and controller separate and isolated from the turntable giving you an even better final result.

it’s hard to imagine what a solution might be without knowing the design of the turntable and how the motor is connected to the plinth.

 

[pjwd]

What a pain ! It really doesn't seem like a major problem to solve .. clamping extra mass on the motor to lower resonant fr or install a mount with an appropriate vibration coefficient. Maybe they cant fit that stuff in.

It pretty weird that the moter excites the TT in the first place .. is it quite a large motor ?
Having said that a motor separated from the plinth as Peter suggests solves all that.. might be time for them to introduce an upgrade !

Good luck
Phil

 

[tima]

Sounds like you, your distributor and the manufacturer have done a lot of work on the issue you report. From your account the other parties want you to be satisfied, so kudos to them for getting 'the issue' resolved to where it is today. That upon your first bringing this to their attention they sent you a new table as a replacement is impressive, along with time spent by both parties in follow up.

But for the 45rpm noise between the tracks I gather there are good reasons for your preference for this particular table over other brands/models. Alas you find yourself at a point where you are sufficiently frustrated that you are not inclined to play records? I will speculate that you are both so focused and dissapointed that you need to get this table 'fixed' or gone even if the 'problem' is limited in scope. Off world isolation such separate motor or armpod, unless provided by the manufacturer with equivalent sonics are not what you paid for. But I would not start complaining publically in an effort to embarrass someone into a solution, given the efforts made for you thus far. A refund or partial refund is, imo, the better solution absent manufacturer pledge to resolve things to the satisfaction of all. Have you talked with the distributor about resolutions?

Given all of that, it's worth asking about expectations. Isolating motor noise is an issue for all turntables. Some do it better than others but where there is a motor there will be energy and vibration. I don't believe I can expect absolute silence from a turntable, especially if I were to start probing it with a stethoscope. The stethoscope simply confirmed that there is a motor and that its vibrations travel. I ask how do people who are unaware of the particular noise of your table react to 45 rpm play vs 33 rpm play? Do we expect the deadwax area to be completely silent?

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Hi 'BillK',
As this looks like an inherent design problem that the Manufacturer cannot fix (although from your info it looks like they have been trying to with bandages & sticky plasters etc....bless them !), I would personally give the whole TT package back to the Dealer and demand a full refund and start a new journey demoing different TTs with hopefully being able to home demo say your top three with your final choice giving you many years of listening pleasure.

There are many fantastic TT Manufacturers out there with TTs that have solid design foundations you can consider which I am sure will give you amazing musical listening pleasure.

p.s. I love my Kuzma XL DC and 4Point 11" Tonearm TT set-up with having no problems with it at all after owning it since July 2022, with currently 776 hours playing time on it.

 

[tima]

Silent, no.

Without motor hum, yes.

There's no reason why I should have to deal with motor vibrations on an almost $100,000 turntable setup when there are no such audible artifacts on a $400 Chinese-made Audio-Technica.

Obviously the Chinese table doesn't sound as good, but still.

Yes, the stethoscope is used only to verify the sound I hear through it is the exact same sound and frequency I hear through the phono stage and where it is coming from.

Has anyone else reported this problem? I assume you have searched other forums.

Over a year seems like a long time for a resolution. Have you asked for a refund?

 

[adrianywu]

You can try using a material called EAR Isodamp under the tonearm base. It should isolate the vibration well.
Problems that have not been apparent during the design stage often crop up while prototyping. Small manufacturers with limited financial resources might not be able to afford the time to iron out all the problems before introducing a new product. Even Apple and Microsoft release buggy software that they sort out with patches post-release. I built my own preamp, amps and speakers, and it took me several years to get all the little glitches completely ironed out. My wife once said that I looked happy when I noticed a problem, because I had an excuse to get my hands dirty again !

 

[XV-1]

It would seem that they have tried to fix the issue, however it is still not fixed.

Can they upgrade you to the next level for gratis or very cheap? There are several owners of that here on WBF and they have zero issues.

Or, unfortunately you need to get a full refund as over 12 months to fix a problem is too long.

I hope things work out.

 

[bonzo75]

I´d demand a full refund and ditch AS all together
IMO

+100k.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

That's part of the issue; I no longer have the table the dealer sold me as the distributor kindly allowed me to upgrade to a more expensive table/tonearm in exchange for the hassle, and of course had zero idea that the problem would still exist given the manufacturer's declaration that the issue had been solved.

So, to use my former example, (and taking into account that you can't exchange cars) if I had say a transmission issue with a Porsche Cayman S, and Porsche allowed me to upgrade to a 911 for my trouble, but I found it had the same issue because Porsche shared the transmission between both cars, I could hardly expect the dealer I purchased the Cayman from to give me a full or almost full refund for the purchase price of a 911.

If the manufacturer can't fix it, I suppose I can try and work for a refund through the distributor, but that's probably the best I could do (or see if the distributor would give me a refund for the upgrade and ask the dealer for a refund for the original purchase.)

You should get a full refund for the monies you have paid out to date for either the first or second TT (whichever value is the greatest).

If you have paid over US$90k for your TT, it should work flawlessly with no issues at all (whatever they are) for many many years of enjoyment.

Even low priced TTs shouldn't have such a problem (with current modern technology etc.)

I also had similar issues plus hum / grounding issues as well specifically from the TT set-up from a very well known UK TT & Tonearm & Cartridge Designer & Manufacturer. I realised it too had major design flaws in it's TT set-ups (TT, Tonearm and Cartridge) and it wasn't just me thinking this, Dealers of the Manufacturer were saying the same (even a Reference Dealer for this Manufacturer). So I sold it on and moved on to a 100 times far better TT & Tonearm Manufacturer i.e. Kuzma.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Thanks, I'm working on it.

After all this as mentioned I may just go with an SL-1000R and call it a day.

I would go with the current Technics SP10R with a custom made plinth and tonearm of your choice rather than the current 'plug and play' all in Technics SL-1000R.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Thanks, I'm working on it.

After all this as mentioned I may just go with an SL-1000R and call it a day.

Bill, you mean after you get your (full/partial) refund, or you're going to totally write off this purchase?

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I am going to work hard to get a refund if they can't fix the issue.

I can't afford to just write off the table as a loss, and after all this I don't know if I have the stomach to play in the ultra high-end turntable market anymore, which is why my two "fallback" tables have always been the SL-1000R and the VPI Avenger Direct.

Hi Bill, I would also seriously consider the Kuzma range of TTs and Tonearms.

I have heard the Kuzma Stabi R with a Kuzma 4Point 14" Tonearm with Kuzma CAR50 cartridge last year for over 3 hours in total at a UK hifi show and the latest Kuzma XL Air with Kuzma Safir9 Tonearm with Kuzma CAR60 cartridge this year at a UK hifi show also for well over 3 hours without a break. They both sounded fantastic (although the electronics and speakers were also top notch).

And I own the XL DC & 4Point 11" arm which I love (both from a looks, setting up, performance and user point of view) and I use it with my EF1000 and Susvara headphone system (i.e. critical listening where I can hear dam it everything coming off the TT set-up).

 

[Maril555]

AS?

Don’t worry Peter, not American Sound

 

[Tangram]

It seems like the manufacturer has thus far operated in good faith to solve the problem, which isn’t always the case. Honestly, I wouldn’t have gone public with the issue - even though you’ve been dealing with it for more than a year and it must be incredibly frustrating for you - given that you are trying to negotiate a full refund. There was too much risk that someone would “out” them, which is exactly what’s happened. I can probably even guess the model based on the information provided on cost. If I were you I’d get the moderators to remove this entire thread.

 

[PeterA]

Don’t worry Peter, not American Sound

Good one. LOL. I know it is not American sound. It has an outboard motor and is sold direct.