Measuring power line noise with the TriField EM100, and the impressive effect of Shyunyata products

peter pan

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a properly implemented highly optimized power supply done right from grounds and service point, through the main panel, subpanel and to the rack negate the gains of a Denali.

I still find it a very backwards process to buy a Denali or Everest or any other unit, rather than focus on point source solutions, mitigating the negative impact at the offending device.

I can have robust industrial filters manufactured that would be installed at your panelboard.
such filters are good and also a dedicated line.

however, you are spreading missleading nonesense. what really counts is the interference INSIDE the system between the components. these are the relevant pointsources.
you wont explore new facts and if you really want to satisfay your customers i recommend you would add the everest or such in your business.
 
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Brucemck2

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If I wanted someone to measure the noise in my system what would the “spec” be for the person and the end product.

I’d like to determine the type of noise and the magnitude of current availability/losses at the outlets my gear is plugged into, and, the noise profile with each piece of gear plugged into the system and operating? I would use that information to determine what sorts of additional devices, if any, to add to my setup.
 

Mdp632

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I have heard Shunyata is working on a replacement(?) piece for the utility that the 2000t provided, but of course with the latest Denali tech. This was after I had already purchased the second Denali v2. No regrets as I need four, maybe six outlets on the front end anyway. Though it will be interesting to see what they come up with.

I've heard similar and in fact was actually leaked by a dealer a few months ago. I assume supply chain issues or other factors have delayed it.

That said, it supposed to be a Denali 2000T and Typhon QR replacement. Meaning it will be a two oulet box, for use with high-end monoblocks.

@ack It would pair nice with your Spectral 500s :)


*It is supposed to have some Everest tech in addition to the massive QR/BB modules.

We'll see what happens.
 

Solypsa

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... what really counts is the interference INSIDE the system between the components. these are the relevant pointsources. ...
I would like to know a bit more about what this means to you. Where is the boundary of 'inside the system*' and 'outside the system*'? Is said boundary moveable?

*power and earth aspects
 

ack

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I've heard similar and in fact was actually leaked by a dealer a few months ago. I assume supply chain issues or other factors have delayed it.

That said, it supposed to be a Denali 2000T and Typhon QR replacement. Meaning it will be a two oulet box, for use with high-end monoblocks.

@ack It would pair nice with your Spectral 500s :)


*It is supposed to have some Everest tech in addition to the massive QR/BB modules.

We'll see what happens.
thanks for the link!
 
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peter pan

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I would like to know a bit more about what this means to you. Where is the boundary of 'inside the system*' and 'outside the system*'? Is said boundary moveable?

*power and earth aspects
the wall socket. as for me, no, not moveable
 

ack

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So, for the last few days I've been measuring noise over and over again, and the only culprit is the dimmable lights. The 120V dimmable LED flood lights can be replaced with the older incadescent style I had for years, if I can find them; but not worried about that, they are in the basement. The real problem is the 12V electronics transformers, and although I can just turn them off when listening, I'd rather find good old analog transformers...

So, does any know where to find analog 12V transformers but compact in size to fit inside light fixtures, 50W-60W? I have searched high and low...
 

microstrip

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So, for the last few days I've been measuring noise over and over again, and the only culprit is the dimmable lights. The 120V dimmable LED flood lights can be replaced with the older incadescent style I had for years, if I can find them; but not worried about that, they are in the basement. The real problem is the 12V electronics transformers, and although I can just turn them off when listening, I'd rather find good old analog transformers...

So, does any know where to find analog 12V transformers but compact in size to fit inside light fixtures, 50W-60W? I have searched high and low...

Yes, LED lamps can be a nightmare. In my experience, not only because of the switching supplies, but also for the connector contacts. I do not have any explanation for it, but the contacts of few lighting fixtures were I replaced the incandescent lamps with compatible LED lamps started corroding after less two years and the poor connection generated a lot of electrical noise. Considering that LEDs have much less electrical power than the previous lamp thatstayed in place for many years, it looks really strange.
 

ack

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Man, I had forgotten how massive and heavy analog transformers can be. Here are two examples, toroids, 50W, which weigh 1.4lbs each!!


I am going to have to drop the power rating to see if there is anything more reasonable... 25W toroids are still 400g, but I am probably drawing more than 25W


and if these things overheat, we are going to have a problem inside the ceiling... oops
 
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Kingrex

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@Kingrex One of my 12V lights with a noisy transformer and on a rocker siwtch is close to a window, and I can run a ground wire from its white wire (bought 30ft last night) through the window and into the ground, and the soil is still very wet after 3 days of constant rain. The goal is to see if an earlier path to earth ground from a noisy device will end up shunting some of the noise to earth ground and away from surrounding outlets. Do you see any danger or other issues with this experiment?
Don't do this. Its a code viloation and dangerous. I get where your thinking. But it is not the correct way to address grounding. Have you ever tested your ground. Rent a clamp on ground resistance tester and clamp it a couple feet from the ground rod, between the rod and your home. Not between the 2 rods or you will only be reading 1 rod.

If you have a noisy transformer, as in it mechanically buzzes, its probably time to toss it out.
 

Kingrex

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and speaking of noise and grounds, I am a little perplexed by the following:

1) Measuring a set of noisy 12V halogen lights in the kitchen, right at the same location and next to their rocker switch - noise goes up a bit
2) Measuring the same lights and noise at one of the audio wall outlets, noise goes WAY UP

Does this mean the rocker switch and outlet next to it have a better or earlier path to ground than the other audio wall outlet? How might this all be explained?


Kitchen outlet/rocker switch, Lights OFF:
View attachment 78673

Kitchen outlet/rocker switch, Lights ON:
View attachment 78674



Audio outlet behind same wall, Lights OFF:
View attachment 78675


Audio outlet behind same wall, Lights ON:
View attachment 78676
You appear to be in a kitchen. The lights should not be on the same circuit as the outlets. That is not legal. So I assume they are different circuits. But, there is a switch and receptacle in the same box. Many time electricians will tie the grounds together in the box. Or they just touch as they are bare wire. I don't tie them together as you have now given two paths for grounds back to the panel. A classic ground loop. Especially since the receptacle wire is 12 awg and the light probably 14. I have been told noise travels on the neutral and ground more so than the phase. I find trying to separate lights and motors onto a phase other than the audio phase does little. And thereby, grounding is very important.
You may be seeing noise downstream of the light switch on the far away receptacle as it is now circulating around two ground paths causing voltage swings.
 
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Kingrex

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such filters are good and also a dedicated line.

however, you are spreading missleading nonesense. what really counts is the interference INSIDE the system between the components. these are the relevant pointsources.
you wont explore new facts and if you really want to satisfay your customers i recommend you would add the everest or such in your business.
I absolutely agree component to component noise "can" be a huge issue. The intensity of the issue all depends on the equipment. Pretty much every time you measure noise when audio equipment is on, or off, the noise level is higher with the audio equipment on.

I don't sell equipment as I would be competing with retail partners. I let them sell equipment. I'm only interested in optimizing the electrical infrastructure. That is what I know how to do. It always makes for better performance. And not just with your audio gear. You will also notice your TV will be much more vivid and clear.

FWIW, I have had Shunyata, Isotek, Furman and Audioquest filters at my home. And I have heard them all at other homes. One home has a particularly bad case of RF. As in you can hear a radio station at times through the speakers. This occurs whether the equipment is through the Super Titan, or direct to the wall. But I have to admit, in his system, his amps sounds better through the Super Titan. There is a little more punch and better integration between the servo subs and main speakers. But I also know it was a dramatic fist pounding gain when the house was grounded proper. Everyone felt it in the room. Just being in the room is was obvious a lot of noise was gone. It was so calm. And as soon as the music started, it was obvious the bass was much better integrated with the main speakers. Most of the thump thump thump was gone and the playback was more musical. More natural. The Super Titan continues to build on this and take it further. So I don't have issue with Filters. I just believe it is something you use after you have addressed the foundation of the power supply. That job was about $5,500 for a big gain. His Super Titan is about $12,000. And, his equipment is much better protected from lightning and surges now.

At this point in time I have Add Power and Akiko devices in my power supply. As well as a panel mounted surge protection device. I would not be without any of them. They all add what works with my system.

I forgot to add, when I started Audio-Ultra, my potential partner used a Stromtank on his front end. He swore by it. He also used QCore for all his digital back one.
Most everyone uses a filter of some sort. But every filter, even battery are connected to the ground. Even when in battery mode.
 
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Kingrex

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So, for the last few days I've been measuring noise over and over again, and the only culprit is the dimmable lights. The 120V dimmable LED flood lights can be replaced with the older incadescent style I had for years, if I can find them; but not worried about that, they are in the basement. The real problem is the 12V electronics transformers, and although I can just turn them off when listening, I'd rather find good old analog transformers...

So, does any know where to find analog 12V transformers but compact in size to fit inside light fixtures, 50W-60W? I have searched high and low...
So, for the last few days I've been measuring noise over and over again, and the only culprit is the dimmable lights. The 120V dimmable LED flood lights can be replaced with the older incadescent style I had for years, if I can find them; but not worried about that, they are in the basement. The real problem is the 12V electronics transformers, and although I can just turn them off when listening, I'd rather find good old analog transformers...

So, does any know where to find analog 12V transformers but compact in size to fit inside light fixtures, 50W-60W? I have searched high and low...


I don't know the issue is the LED Driver. It's usually the dimmer switch. And Microstrip has a very good point about the ampacity rating of the fixture. You can always go down, never up. Replace the light. Don't modify it.
 

Kingsrule

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Checked the 3 30amp dedicated lines I have running from subpanel for my system all were identical at 68 +/- 1 which I think is very good
 

Kingrex

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Ack, your TRIFIELD findings are quite interesting and somewhat match to my ears much of what goes on with Shunyata Denali v2s an the NR mains cabling. I don’t begin to understand it, but it sounds wonderful. As I added each cable the music presented more clearly and deliberate. As I added the first Denali v2 between the mains and the front-end gear there was a marked sense of ease in the overall delivery, but when I added the second Denali v2 at the front-end on the OTL mono blocks and the field-coil power supplies, it created a huge jump in the soundstage depth, the presence of being at the performance became more vivid, and the dynamics both large and small came out to play most brilliantly. The effect was near psychedelic like in its presentation and scope. Music was coming from all over the room, well outside the speaker cabinets, yet images remained stable. Truly a remarkable experience. I’ve never heard anything like it. I realize what this sounds like… audiophile hyperbole, but I just feel the need to share on what we are hearing.
Do you think the playback with the Denali on the amps is more natural and real. Accurate to the source, and accurate as far as reproducing what instruments and voices really sound like.

Or is it more an allusion that stimulates the senses. Creates an excitement. Its not part of what the musicians tried to create, but its enjoyable to the listener.
 
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ack

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Do you think the playback with the Denali on the amps is more natural and real. Accurate to the source, and accurate as far as reproducing what instruments and voices really sound like.

Or is it more an allusion that stimulates the senses. Creates an excitement. Its not part of what the musicians tried to create, but its enjoyable to the listener.
My amps sound much better when plugged into the Denali, and clearly more transparent, dynamic and vivid. This is also true during the day when all lights are off, i.e. line noise very very low. So the Denali's QR/BB thing probably works really well all day long.
 
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Kingrex

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I would like to know a bit more about what this means to you. Where is the boundary of 'inside the system*' and 'outside the system*'? Is said boundary moveable?

*power and earth aspects
Erik, you bring up a good point. I feel the boundary of the system is the entire electrical system. This is where I feel others fail at addressing power. If you have 3 circuits such as ACK does, then you boundary is joined together at the panel where there three circuits are derived from. And that panel is bonded at a central point to the utility and earth. I would say the boundary goes all the way to the utility, to a lesser extent. But when lightning hits the power line and fries your system, you surely know the boundary was far outside the receptacle on your wall.
 

PeterA

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My amps sound much better when plugged into the Denali, and clearly more transparent, dynamic and vivid. This is also true during the day when all lights are off, i.e. line noise very very low. So the Denali's QR/BB thing probably works really well all day long.

Tasos, Did you listen to the system as you were measuring the noise levels so that you could correlate the effect of the noise reading, source and location on the lines with what you heard from your system?
 

ack

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Tasos, Did you listen to the system as you were measuring the noise levels so that you could correlate the effect of the noise reading, source and location on the lines with what you heard from your system?
Not yet
 

Atmasphere

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and speaking of noise and grounds, I am a little perplexed by the following:

1) Measuring a set of noisy 12V halogen lights in the kitchen, right at the same location and next to their rocker switch - noise goes up a bit
2) Measuring the same lights and noise at one of the audio wall outlets, noise goes WAY UP

Does this mean the rocker switch and outlet next to it have a better or earlier path to ground than the other audio wall outlet? How might this all be explained?


Kitchen outlet/rocker switch, Lights OFF:


Kitchen outlet/rocker switch, Lights ON:




Audio outlet behind same wall, Lights OFF:



Audio outlet behind same wall, Lights ON:
Just so you know, while I can see that device being very handy, it is limited to 2MHz and a lot of offending noise happens well above that. For example if you have a cheap class D plate amp in a subwoofer, it can make noise well into the FM band (even though its marked with the CE mark; the manufacturer might be using an old technique called 'lying'). If that noise gets rectified by something in your setup it can still become audible, even though the Trifield says it isn't there.
 

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