Measuring power line capacity with the IDEAL SureTest, and the effect of Shunyata power products

K3RMIT

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The outlet yielding a higher ampacity can be from a few reasons. The tester simply shunts the circuit in a very fast intermittent fasion. using the 12/15/20 amp circuit rating. By doing so it calculates voltage deveation from low to higher as load is applied. while the method is true there are many ways for it to give false readings. still a nice device to use. regarding coatings on outlet preasure contacts I doubt they increase resistance on contact. Also the plugs we use have alloys other means to lower oxidation. as
for cryo it’s above my pay grade to know if bettwr or worse. some use cryo breakers in panels. I can’t see how this is ok by any maker of the breakers as well as the outlets.
 

wil

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As I mentioned, the reason I didn't do that is because to do it correctly you need to build an adapter with quality plugs - the connector supplied with the device is not good enough. See the following post from CG:


You can see the adaptor in this video as well:

I'm too lazy to build one, and am frankly happy with the 668 amps, so don't have a burning need to know how much more the line is capable of.
As far as I can tell, C. Gabriel's demonstration in the video of the dynamic current availability might be a little misleading. In my tests here, the commodity cable which comes with the SureTest provides as much Dynamic Current as the Venom cable.

And just like in his video, a thinner gage commodity cabe (18 awg) lost about 50% of the amperage.

In other words, there is no technology in the Venom cable that produces better "DTCD" than a similar gauge commodity cable. All he's doing is comparing different gauge cables -- hardly a well-conducted test!

And so I wonder if there is any difference in DTCD between the higher end Shunyata power cables and similar gauge commodity cables. This would seem to apply to other audiophile cables, including mine, as well.
 
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VLS

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As far as I can tell, C. Gabriel's demonstration in the video of the dynamic current availability might be a little misleading. In my tests here, the commodity cable which comes with the SureTest provides as much Dynamic Current as the Venom cable.

And just like in his video, a thinner gage commodity cabe (18 awg) lost about 50% of the amperage.

In other words, there is no technology in the Venom cable that produces better "DTCD" than a similar gauge commodity cable. All he's doing is comparing different gauge cables -- hardly a well-conducted test!

And so I wonder if there is any difference in DTCD between the higher end Shunyata power cables and similar gauge commodity cables. This would seem to apply to other audiophile cables, including mine, as well.

Well, AWG is obviously an important (the most, the only?) factor in current delivery - your own results with 6AWG in-wall wiring attest to that. I assume if you made a PC out of 6AWG Romex it would have equally fabulous current capacity.

So, by extension, a commodity cable with comparable AWG should perform well in this regard, assuming it has sufficiently good plugs.

People's reactions to Shunyata's marketing vary. In my case, I don't believe that they have ever asserted that their PCs are the only ones capable of high DTCD. Rather, IMHO their positioning is that they are a company that a) cares about this, b) makes it an explicit design goal, and c) unlike many (most?) others, is willing to put out at least some measurements to back up the claims.

Further, as I understand it, AWG/DTCD is not the only important attribute of a PC. Among the others are a) handling of line noise, b) resistance to EM interference, c) quality of dielectric which some assert can introduce distortion/noise, and d) quality of the hardware (which has a bearing on DTCD and possibly some of the other factors).

I (like others) have satisfied myself via my own measurements that Shunyata (PCs as well as the Denali) does very well w.r.t. current and noise - a confirmation of their marketing. As regards "c" above, I have no way of confirming that directly.

All that is not to say that in a given system other PCs (including cheap ones) wouldn't do well. I have certainly not done an exhaustive comparison, but in mine, Shunyata has beaten the alternatives I have tried.
 
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ack

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And so I wonder if there is any difference in DTCD between the higher end Shunyata power cables and similar gauge commodity cables.
Yes there are significant differences as I measured them in here. For example the Ching Cheng 10awg that came with my Pass XP-25 drops about 30A of peak current, compared to the Venom V10 NR's 5 (as shown earlier); and the non-NR V10 XC drops nothing. I also care about the fact the Shunyata are perfectly shielded, unlike the Ching Cheng and all others I have in here, excepting a Siltech. The Siltech SP-20, however, dropped 100A of peak current.
 

ack

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Further, as I understand it, AWG/DTCD is not the only important attribute of a PC. Among the others are a) handling of line noise, b) resistance to EM interference, c) quality of dielectric which some assert can introduce distortion/noise, and d) quality of the hardware (which has a bearing on DTCD and possibly some of the other factors).
+1 In here, it's characteristic how quiet my phono has become, to the point I have raised the gain to an astonishing 76dB. And that's due to the lack of radiated 60Hz hum from the plethora of cords I have in close proximity. Night and day from a year ago. This electromagnetic tranquility is also measurable with the Trifield TF2, as discussed elsewhere
 

wil

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I think it's kind of hard to get very refined apples/apples comparisons of cable DTCD because every time you re-measure, the reading has bumped up or down anywhere from 100 to 300 amps. But, given that, it's consistent that the 18 g cable like CG used is always about 50% worse than the higher gauge cables I have here: from a cheap commodity cable to a low end PS Audio cable to my expensive Sablon/Bocchino's.

That's only on DTCD, which Shunyata makes a big deal of in it's marketing as if it is something unique to them. That's not to say there aren't other things they do with there cables that make a difference.
 

GrantS

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As I mentioned, the reason I didn't do that is because to do it correctly you need to build an adapter with quality plugs - the connector supplied with the device is not good enough. See the following post from CG:


You can see the adaptor in this video as well:

I'm too lazy to build one, and am frankly happy with the 668 amps, so don't have a burning need to know how much more the line is capable of.
I would like to add context having had plenty of experience using the Suretest. We found the Suretest devices useful for determining broad (gross) differences between for example a "stock power cord" versus almost anything designed with crimped and soldered connections. They are not nearly as reliable in making finer scale observations and are prone to inconsistency when used in quick succession (they get hot internally after each pulse which negatively affects the subsequent measurement if taken in quick succession (within 1-2mins) ). This is part of the reason, along with better accuracy and being able to chart results using an oscope, that Caelin developed the DTCD Analyzer. That may also be in part why someone might get a different reading on the same circuit when waiting for ten minutes to take a second measurement versus a reading taken 30secs after the first reading.

Within our power distributors we reduce junction impedance normally inherent to multi-outlet boxes by using our own solid copper outlets, massive awg. copper wiring and our sonic-weld machine for major junctions. Regardless, there will be minor losses from junctions such as IEC's and outlets if you measure with DTCD analysis. This is expected. Even transparently adding a single high-quality outlet in front of another top quality wall outlet would measure as a loss, albeit a minimal one, similar to your 456 direct versus 402, which is insignificant considering the variability of the device.

Regarding the QRBB. The patent establishes how and why the device works. It functions as a coulomb charge circuit, but without the normal use of capacitors in series. We have measured the QRBB directly and it does exactly what the patent says it does. The Suretest device was developed to detect wiring junction errors that need correction within large scale commercial wiring systems (ex. open junction errors) -- and not finer gradations like between two similar awg. power cords from different manufacturers, or the difference between a rhodium or silver plated outlet, or stranded versus solid core wiring. We don't use that device beyond our video example for those reasons. The video's purpose was to show why it's a mistake to stick with stock power cords on high-performance electronics tasked with accurately reproducing sound. The Suretest is similar to, but a better engineered product than the many noise-sniffer devices, which measure gross differences within a very narrow band but are useless as devices that can measure the relevant noise reduction capability of a device like a Denali or even a power cord capable of reducing noise.

Using the Suretest is an interesting and fun experiment, but for the reasons mentioned I would caution against drawing broad conclusions because of the variables in play during tests like this.

Regarding amps, if someone has an open dedicated line to run a class A biased amp from versus a Denali that supports 4-5 other components, I encourage them to explore that option. Not because the Denali can't easily support amps of any kind (it can and does), but because 40A (20Ax2) shared among 5 components (4 components + an amp) is going to sound better (typically) than using a single 20A line for the same 5 components (with or without a power distributor). Properly installed dedicated lines can make a substantive difference for the better when they are done right. Shunyata components are designed the same way, as over-rated passive conduits to facilitate maximum throughput of peak current, while also taking noise reduction into account.

Results using the Denali and Everest have been vetted in every conceivable application, including surgical settings where the results are independently measured using highly calibrated equipment. Similar results are apparent at the top of the recording/studio community and in high end audio. Consistency over time in many contexts and countries is the true test of any component that has been on the market a while.

If there are follow ups feel free to e-mail me as I am traveling quite a bit this summer.

Best regards,

Grant
grant@shunyata.com
 

ack

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Thanks Grant
 

ack

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Regarding the QRBB. The patent establishes how and why the device works. It functions as a coulomb charge circuit, but without the normal use of capacitors in series. We have measured the QRBB directly and it does exactly what the patent says it does. The Suretest device was developed to detect wiring junction errors that need correction within large scale commercial wiring systems (ex. open junction errors) -- and not finer gradations like between two similar awg. power cords from different manufacturers, or the difference between a rhodium or silver plated outlet, or stranded versus solid core wiring. We don't use that device beyond our video example for those reasons.
I just reread the QR/BB patent https://patents.google.com/patent/US10031536B2/en more carefully. As I mentioned earlier, it appears the SureTest device does not appear to be able to properly measure how my Denali v2 (and other products of yours) behaves in reality with respect to instantaneous current delivery, because it relies on a rather simplistic quick short-circuit to calculate peak current delivery (which is also why the device trips CFGI outlets). The SureTest device does show a peak current drop out of the Denali outlet as we have seen, but this is not the whole truth.

So after reading the patent again, it is obvious to me that this QR/BB technology is rather ingenious, and can offer more instantaneous current than we lay persons pretend to measure. Specifically, I am calling attention to this language:


In the power supply, when the rectifiers switch on, their impedance drops to less than 0.1 ohms. This creates a dramatic increase in current draw from the AC power line. However, the inductive reactance of the AC power line resists this instantaneous draw of current that impedes the effective flow of current flow to the power supply.

The inventive apparatus is positioned at the AC input to the power supply. The apparatus is most effective when placed as near to the rectifiers as possible.

As the AC voltage waveform rises in voltage with the rectifiers off, an electric charge is formed within the apparatus. As the AC voltage nears its peak, the rectifiers turn on when they have exceeded the voltage level in the storage capacitor array. When this occurs, the AC line impedance resists the sudden change in current, thereby creating a high source impedance to the power supply. However, the stored electric charge within the apparatus is released and delivers a momentary power boost.


This tells me a couple of things:

1) Irrespective of the invention, it is always beneficial to be able to draw as much instantaneous current as possible from the power line - a rather obvious observation I might say; so chalk that one up against better receptacles, connectors, cords, et al
2) Placing those QR/BB modules on the power cords, as you do with the higher-end cords, would appear to offer additional benefit to those inside the Denali, Everest and others
3) The invention seems to answer for me the rather intriguing question of why my system sounds so much more dynamic when everything is plugged into the Denali v2

The other thing you pointed out is that the invention does not suffer from the typical issues one would be faced if a series capacitor were to be used. There was a thread on audiogon decades ago discussing the benefit of store/release of energy in the power line, and someone famously asked something like "So why not just plug in a big-ass capacitor in series and be done with it"

The patent makes the following claims around this, and I fully believe them:


The apparatus has some of the advantages of a storage capacitor and some of a series inductor without the corresponding disadvantages. Specifically, it can store small amounts of reserve charge in the manner of a series inductor, yet like a storage capacitor it responds to changes in current flow almost instantaneously.

The apparatus stores energy in the form of a coulomb charge, in a manner similar to how a capacitor functions. However, unlike a capacitor the apparatus has virtually no current flow through it. The apparatus is specifically designed to have a very high series resistance, on the order of three to six Giga ohms. Further, the apparatus does not store voltage as a capacitor does.

Also unlike a capacitor, in embodiments the conductive strips used in the inventive apparatus are not placed in close proximity to one another. Further, the electric charge is not stored in an intermediary dielectric material. Rather, the coloumb charge is stored entirely within the conductive strips themselves, in the form of compressed electrons. As used herein, “compressed electrons” means that the there is a relative electric charge present from one end of the conductive strip to the other end such that the electrons behave within groups or domains of electron charge.


What may raise some eyebrows is that last sentence: "As used herein, “compressed electrons” means that the there is a relative electric charge present from one end of the conductive strip to the other end such that the electrons behave within groups or domains of electron charge."

Finally, the meat of the matter appears to be:

"Unlike an inductor, the inventive apparatus does not resist a change in instantaneous current flow. Rather, it improves instantaneous current flow. In essence, the apparatus may be considered a unique type of basic electronic circuit component in that it operates entirely differently from either a capacitor or an inductor.

The principle of operation requires further study, but there is evidence that the apparatus functions based upon the principles associated with drift current and not necessarily electromagnetic wave propagation
.""


Regardless, this is all brilliant, if nothing else but thinking way outside the box!

Note should be made that the inventive circuit operates only in a power system where current is drawn in pulses. It has no advantageous effect in a system where current draw is linear across the entire AC waveform.
 
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audioarcher

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Measuring the Furutech GTX-D

The next investigation involved understanding why the two Audio Outlets consistently show lower current draws, even when few things are on it - like the preamp, phono preamp and tuner

The suspicion turned to those in-wall Furutech GTX-Ds. All others around them, which consistently get much higher readings, are high quality Leviton, and one of them gets me over 980A. So I decided to chain a spare GTX-D to one of the live GTX-Ds and measure peak amperage and impedance, using alligator clips and two per side in order to get 12awg on each leg.

It was a surprise, but the famed Furutech appears to be audiophile jewelry, a piece of crap, in the same category as those Ching Cheng cords I tested before, giving me basically half the current of the in-wall GTX-D.

So now we have all Leviton outlets around the audio system giving out 1.5X to 2X the current of the in-wall GTX-D, and then a chained GTX-D dropping half of its parent's as well, with much higher impedance than anything else I have measured (which is typically <0.15Ohms everywhere)

View attachment 79699
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View attachment 79702
View attachment 79703

Needless to say, they will be promptly replaced with Hubbell
Interesting tests! FWIW I tried both the GTX-R NCF, and a GTX gold plated outlets in the past. Did not care for either of them. They were too dark sounding in my system. I ended up with a Oyaide R1, and Oyaide R0. Like them much more. Would love to try Shunyata's Copper Conn outlets if they put them on the market again.

I have an Everest and Sigma XC on the way. Should be interesting!
 

allvinyl

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Measuring the Furutech GTX-D

The next investigation involved understanding why the two Audio Outlets consistently show lower current draws, even when few things are on it - like the preamp, phono preamp and tuner

The suspicion turned to those in-wall Furutech GTX-Ds. All others around them, which consistently get much higher readings, are high quality Leviton, and one of them gets me over 980A. So I decided to chain a spare GTX-D to one of the live GTX-Ds and measure peak amperage and impedance, using alligator clips and two per side in order to get 12awg on each leg.

It was a surprise, but the famed Furutech appears to be audiophile jewelry, a piece of crap, in the same category as those Ching Cheng cords I tested before, giving me basically half the current of the in-wall GTX-D.

So now we have all Leviton outlets around the audio system giving out 1.5X to 2X the current of the in-wall GTX-D, and then a chained GTX-D dropping half of its parent's as well, with much higher impedance than anything else I have measured (which is typically <0.15Ohms everywhere)

View attachment 79699
View attachment 79700
View attachment 79701
View attachment 79702
View attachment 79703

Needless to say, they will be promptly replaced with Hubbell

Which Hubbell will/did you use? Hubbell HBL5362 has been recommended to me.
 

allvinyl

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...
Finally, as I mentioned to VLS today, with respect to power cords, nothing comes close to the shunyata either, which exhibit the smallest peak amperage drop.

When you write that no other PC compares favorably to the Shunyata PCs, to which others did you compare? (I may have missed that so excuse my asking if you already answered that.)

I ask because I now have a mixture of cords having sold my Hydra A/V and Alpha HC PCs. My two subwoofer amps are using older Black Mambas with the loose ferrite material inside the jacket. My source distribution is now via a Niagara 5000 and all PCs are Hurricane HC. Currently my Viola amp is also plugged into the 5000. All of this will change as I am putting in 4 new dedicated lines. The Viola + Typhon will go on one of those lines.

I have just received the Ideal meter and plug like the one Caelin used in the video. I'll be doing some measuring and compare the PCs I have. I'd be interested to see what newer Shunyata PCs would measure compared to the older ones I have. Also how the AQ PCs compare.

I will report results.
 

VLS

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When you write that no other PC compares favorably to the Shunyata PCs, to which others did you compare? (I may have missed that so excuse my asking if you already answered that.)

I ask because I now have a mixture of cords having sold my Hydra A/V and Alpha HC PCs. My two subwoofer amps are using older Black Mambas with the loose ferrite material inside the jacket. My source distribution is now via a Niagara 5000 and all PCs are Hurricane HC. Currently my Viola amp is also plugged into the 5000. All of this will change as I am putting in 4 new dedicated lines. The Viola + Typhon will go on one of those lines.

I have just received the Ideal meter and plug like the one Caelin used in the video. I'll be doing some measuring and compare the PCs I have. I'd be interested to see what newer Shunyata PCs would measure compared to the older ones I have. Also how the AQ PCs compare.

I will report results.

FYI, ack is no longer active on this site.
 

allvinyl

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Using the Suretest is an interesting and fun experiment, but for the reasons mentioned I would caution against drawing broad conclusions because of the variables in play during tests like this.
...
Best regards,

Grant
grant@shunyata.com

Hi Grant - when using the meter's ASCC1 test, I observed an slight increase when measuring a Black Mamba PC versus a Hosa Iec C13 to NEMA 5-15P adapter. I assume the Hosa adapter and the short cord provided with the meter both measure lower, though not significantly, because they are poorer conductors. Are there better options than either the Hosa adapter or provided cord or doesn't it matter?
 

bazelio

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What conclusions are being inferred from an outlet that measured 300A vs one that measured 600A or even 1kA on a line that trips a breaker after 20A?
 

VLS

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What conclusions are being inferred from an outlet that measured 300A vs one that measured 600A or even 1kA on a line that trips a breaker after 20A?

A “slow blow” fuse or breaker with a low rating can have a very high instantaneous current capacity. The breaker or fuse will not trip if the high current demand is short - which is what happens when musical signals are being amplified.
 

bazelio

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A “slow blow” fuse or breaker with a low rating can have a very high instantaneous current capacity. The breaker or fuse will not trip if the high current demand is short - which is what happens when musical signals are being amplified.
Oh sure, you can exceed 3-4x the breaker rating for very short bursts. But again ... 300A vs 600A. We're supposing this matters?
 

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