Listening amp candidates for R1s

[Musically_engaging]

Eli

I would be inclined to agree with Audio Explorations on this one, the M600's deliver superb bass response down to whatever your front end can provide. They also supply more than adequate dynamics for the most demanding music I listen to as well, WITHOUT fatigue or fuss.

Cabling, mains cleaning and quality pre amplification are must to really extract the best from ANY piece of equipment in a high end audio set up.

I was fortunate to be at the UK show last Saturday and we were treated to an out of hours presentation by the UK distributor at more than usual volume levels and with some of the most dynamic and alive music I have heard to date, the term being there does not do them justice.

While I was searching for amplification I did try the DarTZeel mono blocks which are superb, I would suggest they have a slightly sweeter top end end than the M600, but it is very, very close. The 600's have more depth and real tangibility plus for me a more fluid sound for me. bass response on both, were found 'Not wanting'

The bigger Gryphons are also extremely capable devices as well, for myself the physical size and sheer amount of heat generated put me off, they did err on the warm side of neutral for me, which you may prefer.

The Momentum mono's are very good too, though the stereo provided a greater sense of being there and stereo separation, which on this subject I would say a Momentum Pre and M600's make for a rather special combination if you are using a more neutral front end like the Esoteric Eli.

Anyway good hunting with your amplifier search.

 

[Eli08]

Welcome ME!

It's funny. If you were at the UK show with the M600s, those were precisely the ones that were at my house the prior weekend. World is a small place I guess.

I agree with you these were top and comparable if not better than anything I have heard before. Only at those things I pointed they felt a bit short (and I mean a bit, but then, for these level you will not want it to be short by any amount or in any aspect of reproduction). And yes I do also think there was something else going on that produced those results. Maybe they did not have time to settle, or the current was bad that day, or the cables or whatever... that is why I am looking forward to try them again. I will hear from dealer soon on when this can be.

I do not think is the rest of the system. The Esoteric 02s + clock go down very deep and dynamic with anything I have tried on them. And the ARC ref 40 does as well. So has to be something else. I need to listen more and try a few things.

The Momentum were very good. I only heard the monos though. Still a bit to focused on the mid lows to my taste and could be a bit more extended and fast in the highs. Very sweet and listenable, but can get a bit boring with time. Again, I am being very picky. I am talking about very small "buts", although at these levels, so I fell I should.

Gryphon is another alternative I am considering. Although more expensive. I do not like to the warm side per se. Too much to the warm side, I find for long listening, it can get a bit boring and you miss extension up. Problem with Gryphon is that to get a prolonged listening session at my place is a logistic nightmare. And also heat is a minus. Would like to hear them though. We will see when I can get another listening session of the TADs and depending on the results I will asses next steps.

Where the M600 playing the CR1s or the R1s? Did you noticed what cables? Assume it was an all TAD system, right? I will surely not change my source and would much rather not changing preamp neither since I like what ref 40 does.

 

[Musically_engaging]

Hi Eli

I use the same front end as yourself with a Esoteric Rb clock as well, although a electronics acquaintance of mine has reworked the dac and transport to improve the depth and texture for me which has helped find the missing pieces I was looking for.

Earlier in the year I did obtain a ref 40 from the US to try, at that point easily their best pre amplifier to date, however I found it lacked real note decay and tangibility (it would liken it to having the notes truncated and 2/3's of their total decay point) for myself this is very important I like to feel the music ebbing away in a natural fashion rather than just being curtailed. As you say small points but very valid especially at this level of equipment.


The UK show used both of the CR-1's and R-1's with all of the TAD electronic equipment in attendance including the new DA1000 dac as well.
Not sure which cables they were using Eli, not seen them before, though they looked awfully thin in diameter.

The set up was very good indeed, at least in the same league as Munich though in a smaller room around 2/3's the size, the gentleman performing the demonstration was from TAD Europe and gave an interesting presentation on the history of the brand which was a nice touch.

Later on that evening the distributor gave a private demonstration after the show finished (a few of the visitors that were in my presentation asked if they could return later for another listen, he suggested we came back around 6.30 for in his words a bit of fun!) of a streaming computer device which sound like no steaming device I have listened to before, this had true three dimensionality and a sense of being there was mesmerizing to say the least. Just did not wish to leave when they called time on the session.

I have never heard music sound so realistically convincing as I did on that last demonstration again they used both speakers, the feeling of just hearing the musicians and performers giving the 10 or so of us our own intimate concert experience was pretty special.

Many of the listeners could not believe the depth of scale and presence the CR-1's were producing which was seriously impressive and engaging.

All in all a thoroughly enjoyable day with some great equipment on show.

 

[Eli08]

Thanks for the detail explanation. I do not find that on the Ref 40. On the contrary actually I would say those are strong points of it. But system matching and configuration - and likings - can make a huge difference in perception at these levels since we are talking of small differences in absolute terms.

Interesting. What was the streaming device. A regular PC or MAC or something specific? Assume it was connected to the TAD CD / DAC?

 

[Eli08]

Sorry ME forgot to ask. Are your current amps the M600? If so could you tell me what cables you use and also share any experience of things you tried? Thanks

 

[Eli08]

Has anyone read this interview?

http://hifi-unlimited.blogspot.com.es/2010/08/10-qs-for-yoshiro-al-hirano-chief.html

I am confused on what he syas about M600. Is he saying it is class D amplification? There was this debate here some time ago and some dealer said it was not, but he seems to be saying otherwise, or do I read it the wrong way?

 

[High Potential]

Has anyone read this interview?

http://hifi-unlimited.blogspot.com.es/2010/08/10-qs-for-yoshiro-al-hirano-chief.html

I am confused on what he syas about M600. Is he saying it is class D amplification? There was this debate here some time ago and some dealer said it was not, but he seems to be saying otherwise, or do I read it the wrong way?

Read somewhere that it's Class A/B.

How's your amp trial out going Eli?

 

[Eli08]

Have the TAD 600 home for a week and a half now. They were brand new so still breaking in I guess. But I can say already these are very special and easely the best I have heard so far. Will comment more when they get more hours on and I arrange for a pair the PC I have been using lately.

 

[murrayp]

The M600 are class A/B for sure. You can find a service manual on the net if you look hard. The M2500 is Class D with a big conventional power supply afaik.

I also tried the Dag Monos with my CR1s at the beginning of this year. They didn't suit my tastes - rather warm and not extended at either end, particularly to the lows which create the room lock / you-are-there effect that the CR1s are capable of. They created a very life like performance, but this interpretation does not work well with all music - eg electronic which was never live in the first place. I personally prefer amplifiers that don't "interpret".

More recently I used a Soulution 710 with them - I felt it presented a less "coloured" sound. But in the end I found it still a little on the warm / unexciting side. I've now moved to Halcro DM88s and I feel comfortable with these (though I haven't tried them on my CR1s yet). Interestingly the person who bought my 710 used it to replace his DM88s and is also very happy. So clearly it all depends on preferences.

I've heard the CR1s and Refs at shows many times around the world - I think Andrew Jones thinks I'm a groupie by now. The best I've heard them (Munich this year) was with M600s. At RMAF a year or three back the Refs were paired with valve amplifiers that most thought didn't do either of them justice. But I think shows are not the way to hear anything at its best.

A very interesting thread - thanks!

 

[defride]

Roy Gregory's notes in the second part of this link to the Z:Axis system running CR1's at the UK's NAS show may be of interest to those here who've not seen it. A friend who's ears I trust felt the system was working really well when he visited the room

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/nas2013/nas2013_overview.htm

 

[hifikontoen]

I would have tried Hegel's H30 (which can be used as stereo-amp although it "is" a mono). Having compared this (in "stereo-mode") with McIntosh on TAD R1, I was surprised that the Hegel was easily better (in advance I assumed nearly no differences).

 

[PGA]

I just set up my R1s with the Constellation monos and they sound really great. Previously had TAD M1s with Spectral 360s, Pass 600s and MSBs. Unfortunately the M1s were all recalled do to irreparable defects with the cabinets. Then for a while switched to Magico Q5s with the Constellation monos. Just recently went back to TAD and very happy with the results as to me this is a much more musical presentation than with the Magico speakers.

 

[AudioExplorations]

Welcome to WBF PGA. I believe you are the only member here who has owned both magico and TAD, it would be very interesting if you could elaborate a bit on your experience of the sound of the Q5 vs the R1's.

 

[PGA]

TAD customer service is unsurpassed. Working with Andrew Jones is a real pleasure. The grills that are now on the TAD coax driver is one example. My son with special needs loves listening to music with me, but he can't help himself and pokes at the drivers. The original M1s had the coax driver exposed. Andrew temporarily covered mine with bug screen, which worked, but kept needing to get tightened as it would stretch. Then finally he developed the concave metal grill that is now on all TADs, which works great and cannot be pushed in.

Focusing on the sound, in my room the R1s sound much more musical to me than the Q5s. I don't like the way aluminum enclosures sound, and I do feel they have a certain character that is different than wood or other materials. Given the size, perhaps an R1 should be compared to a Q7. The Q5 cannot compete with a speaker that is the size of an R1 when it comes to deep bass. The R1s give the music much more weight and has a more organic sound. The Q7 is probably superior to an R1 since I suspect it uses much more expensive crossover parts and is a 4 way. But I also suspect the engineering of the TADs compensates for the differences in parts costs. I would say, if you have the room, the R1 is a much more fun speaker to own. My room is not very big, just 12x 18, but it is highly treated with RPG products on all surfaces except the floor, that is wood with an oriental carpet.

The coax driver on the TAD sets it apart from most other speakers. This is an extraordinary driver, but it does have a peak in the treble that can easily make it sound harsh. I find the R1s to be smoother than the M1s in the treble, but maybe that is also a result the Constellation amps that are quite amazing and I did now have them with the M1s. The Q5 may have a slightly smoother upper treble, but below that I much prefer the TAD and find the midrange and treble, while very we'll integrated in the Magico, are even more together in the TADs.

 

[zztop7]

DANGER: What I am going to propose could be tricky if you or a tech does not have the savy.

The coax driver on the TAD sets it apart from most other speakers. This is an extraordinary driver, but it does have a peak in the treble that can easily make it sound harsh. I find the R1s to be smoother than the M1s in the treble, but maybe that is also a result the Constellation amps that are quite amazing and I did now have them with the M1s. The Q5 may have a slightly smoother upper treble, but below that I much prefer the TAD and find the midrange and treble, while very we'll integrated in the Magico, are even more together in the TADs.

If you can easily get to the crossovers, take a look at the capacitors for the "upper treble" and evaluate their ?higher? level of quality. Possibly substituting & auditioning in their place an >EQUAL RATING< Mundorf Supreme Silver/Oil or Duelund Cast copper. In my system I switch between the two. I am not sure if I can tell a difference in my system. Both Very Smooth.

Advice is cheap / some consequences are disastrous - let the reader beware!

zz.

 

[PGA]

With all respect, I would think twice before modifying a speaker in this price range. That said, with support from Andrew Jones my M1s were at one point actively biamped. He designed on his spare time the analogue crossover, built it into BelCanto mono blocks, and made the needed changes to the speakers. The crossovers were equalized to extend the low end half an octave with the cabinet port sealed. This mod sounded amazingly good, and essentially matched the low end of the smaller M1 to the R1, but in a 4 way speaker that frankly had better midbass than my current R1s. It's just too bad that the M1 cabinets kept literally splitting apart. But if you can find M1s that are not cracked then that is a real find. Pretty much all the cabinets made in China cracked. I believe some were made in Japan or England that did not crack. But regardless, Pioneer gave everyone their money back if they had problems.

If you read up old interviews you will see Andrew is a fan of active crossovers. Maybe at some point he comes up with something for the R1s, but on my own, I will not mess with them.

 

[PGA]

But back on the topic of amps, on the M1s the Spectral 360s with all Spectral gear was a bit bright. The Pass 600.5s were more musical but not detailed compared to the Spectral. Then I went on to the MSB DAC and monos that combined the best of both Pass and Spectral. Finally ended up with the Alpha DAC and the Constellation amps, but by this time my M1s had cracked several times and I had switched to Q5s. But for me this amp/DAC set up is better in every regard to all the previous amps and DACs I tried. I'm now anxious to hear the new Alpha Reference DAC. I'm surprised how little talk there is with TAD and Constellation, yet Constellation and Magico seems a popular combination.

 

[Alexis]

I am also very courious and interessed for active crossover for my Tad R1.. someone knows the mail address of andrew Jones?

Thank you very much in advance
Alex

 

[AudioExplorations]

he response at "info (at) tad-labs.com", however I have not yet had response on an email sent last week, I guess he has been busy with CES?

 

[Alexis]

Hi PGA
I heard Tad r1 with costellation amps last year in Munich. Very good indeed!
At my home, in a not to big hearing room, I prefere my Viva Audio Aurora combo, smooth, seamless and incredible resolving.
The sound is for my ears.. incredible, no one would imagine that you have only (Single Ended by one 845...) 28 w!
The dac I am using is msb analog and mit ma-x cables for interconnect and double run of kondo spz for the speakers.
The R1 is one of the most resolving speakers of the market, the only difficulty is to combine well all the components to mitigate a hint of beryllium hardness, that can occour if one single component is not top of the notch class. The R1 takes no prisoners! the digital source is therefore of particular importance.
Other important issue is the warm up of the system and also the speakers.
just put into operation, they tend to sound a little edgy.
after one or two hours, they sing celestial... with breaktaking speed, accuracy and resolution. the bass quality is also incredible textured and rich in tonal colours.
Worldclass speakers.. any doubt?