Listening amp candidates for R1s

I know there's no accounting for taste, but I find the comment about the AR 150 x darTZeel 458 frankly absurd.
A friend traded his AR pre (Ref. 5) + AR 150 for the darTZeel... integrated! And got a considerable quality improvement.
But then again, if you like tubes, you like tubes, and so that's it.


alexandre

Alexandre,

I would also find it absurd but I compared the REF750 with the 458. Next time I will spell it - REF seven hundred fifty.

And I will not enter the battle of debating a "considerable quality improvement" - IMHO it is not possible to compare improvements this way. Besides, it is not liking tubes or SS - there is difference enough inside these classes to make this comment frankly absurd. :) My DartZeel NHB108 is very different from any other solid state amplifier I have listened to in my system - even from a good friend DartZeel integrated that has been in my listening room several times.
 
He said 750, not 150.

I do see 750 could compete with the 458 (pure guessing; havent heard any of them but makes sense). The 150 clearly not, but neither did he said so.

He did, my bad. Shame on me for posting before my usual coffee intake :)
Apologies are in order, so here they are... Sorry!

Still, IMO, 458 > AR 750, though I agree it's a bit "apples versus oranges" thing. The public for one is not necessarily the same as the other.

alexandre
 
Believe it or not, my Dagostino preamp on my Dart amp, I feel, is a better combo than my Dart preamp on my Dart amp. I have some more experimentation to do but there was something intense and 3 dimensional that I was hearing with the Dag pre and Dart amp that I loved.

Yes, I could observe that when I had the Soulution 720 preamp here. Transparency went up a few notches.

Needless to say that I'm glad the darTZeel preamp is likely the first to be revised into mk2 :)


alexandre
 
Yes, I could observe that when I had the Soulution 720 preamp here. Transparency went up a few notches.

Needless to say that I'm glad the darTZeel preamp is likely the first to be revised into mk2 :)


alexandre

I will be in line for the update as well.
 
So having listened to the Momentums with the R1s and the Ref 40 (sources are esoteric P02/D02/G0), initial impressions, all in my room, system and ears....

This is an impressive amp. In the sense that being so small it really delivers the power needed to move the speakers with no problem at all. Gives a weightfull presentation and when it needs to deliver in big crescendos with the volume up it has no problem. With big orchestras per instance, throws a powerful sound and presentation, credible in that sense, and there is no sign of constrains of any kind. Gives you a huge soundstage in those cases as well. Nice. The needle of the power output, rarely passes the middle point. I guess the R1s are not too much of a difficult load after all, but I don't think these amps will have problems driving almost any speaker. They do get hot though. Very. But does not seem to affect performance.

It is a bit noisy. Sound of transformer can be heard more or less loud depending on the moment, at least with these units. But that does not interfere in the music.

IN terms of sound resembles very much what I've read and heard around. It is very "musical" with emphasis in the mid and low mid region. So I guess what you call a warm presentation. Is pleasant and easy to listen to. It controls very nicely the lows and is not short there. It goes deep and with control. Only in the very deep, like double bass you feel maybe it could go a bit deeper and wit more impact but not by much. It is at is best when playing big orchestras like symphonies or the orchestral parts of concertos. The soundstage grows to very credible sizes in these cases and produces a very pleasant sound. Fantastic reproduction of winds and brass.

Personally I would like more high extensions and speed. Also a bit more transparency, inner detail, transient attack, air and focus in the presentation. THat is what I missed the more when listening to them so far. I feel Siltech cables are a no go for these amps. I will give it a listen with Mexcel cables today, which are much faster and extended. I think they are going to be a better match for these amps. NOt sure how much they will make them improve in those areas to meet my likings.

These amps sound best with big large passages. Listening to a symphony, with the musical and weightfull presentation is a pleasure.Plenty of power and nice layout. Fantastic tuneful winds, that are more prominent in the overall presentation than I have heard with other ams, making the whole thing more sweet and "listenable". Goes very wide.

With concertos, when the soloist kicks in, the size of the soloist goes bigger in relative terms to the rest of the presentation, making him be all over the place in a way. It has good 3D so you hear him up front but it is a bit too large and so you fell it should be more focused. This is specially the case in violin concertos. Solo violin passages are fine, with all the meat when it goes to the mid to low registers. But up the highs I like it to be a bit faster and more extended. Also to go deeper into the playing. When Violin is playing along with the orchestra you either miss it or have too much of it depending on the register of the violin plying.

IN chamber orchestra, the sound is overall very pleasant when considered as a whole. It could be more focused with more air between players in the presentation again to my likings. Same thing as said above stands. First violin you miss, while cello is very good.

These are my fists impressions. They may change as I do more listening and tune a bit the system to try to better adapt to the nature of these amps. We will see.

One thing is clear. The R1s are chameleonic speakers, depending on what you put upstream.
 
Need to edit first post on momentums. These are very very good amps. All the things that were pros remain there. The things that were to me areas where they could improve have either disapeared or become much less of an issue. I have enjoyed my time with them very much. Dealer is taking them away next friday but I will be away till then, so will not be able to listen to them anymore.

Fantastic mids, and one of best if not best mid/lows I have ever heard. Good performance all around. Yes it could be more slightly more extended in the highs and more resolving. Even a bit more detailed. But other areas would probably suffer. All in all I think they are top. Diferent to other amps I have heard but very attractive. i think I will revisit this amps and are candidates.

Next week I will be listening to ARC 250. Have asked for the 750 but for now is not possible. Maybe later. And next will the the TAD M600. We will see...

So far Momentums are to be considered as candidates.
 
Eli- thanks for posting your impressions - always great to read TAD amp pairing impressions from different perspectives.

My only suggestion would be to make sure you don't miss out the dart 108 in your list. From what I have heard and read (no personal experience the momentum), the dart may provide a very similar sonic picture but without the limitations in extension and resolution. In any case, the TAD-dart pairing blows me away on a daily basis, you should hear this combo for yourself to realise how good it is.

Also, the 108 will give you a good idea of the monoblocs incase you have a large room/power requirements and can afford these beauties (lucky you!).

Keep us updated on the amp journey.
 
Thanks Joost. I think it can be of help to others - and to me on the feedback I get as well -

Went through your similar post for amps on the CR1s. Given similarities of both speakers what's good for one should be good for the other, and so very good info there with the only difference of the extra power needed to move the 2 bigger bass drivers. The comments on the Momentums are very accurate to what I've heard.

Do you think the 108 has the muscle to drive the R1s without dynamic constrains? I would love to hear the 458 and if I felt it was clearly to me the best out there to my likings providing something different form other alternatives I would consider it. But to commit that kind of money on an amp I would need to be sure on that and the only way of doing it is by having the amps in my room/system for a listen a few days. Just don't see right now how I am going to be able to do that considering the distribution policies, waiting list et all, but I will try.
 
Eli- the R1 has a higher sensitivity as compared to the CR1, so less power will be needed to generate the same volume level. The 108 works great without any power constraints in my small/medium sized listening room, it cruizes very nicely within it's comfort zone. The bass is incredible. I could image if more volume is needed to fill a larger space it could start to struggle, this is coming from what I have heard from others. I remember you have your speakers setup similarly to myself, both in distance between speakers and listening distance, so unless you are sitting in a very large room this should not be a problem.
 
Eli,

I think Joost is right about the Dartzeel on the TADs, it's the one amp I keep going back to and enjoying immensely. I still have the Dartzeel and sold the Dagostino. I will be trying some tube gear shortly having taken delivery of a Conrad Johnson GAT preamp (my second one because I loved it so much) and ART mono blocks. This gear is simply stunning. I have an EAR 890 amp and 868 preamp coming in a few weeks as well for a different flavor. I am keen to try my tube gear on my TAD CR-1's because I am in love with my CJ GAT/ART on my Studio2. I suspect both tube kits will sound awesome on my TADs as well.

This is based on my taste which runs to the warmer side of neutral and I am will to give up a little for awesome treble/midrange.
 
Eli,

I think Joost is right about the Dartzeel on the TADs, it's the one amp I keep going back to and enjoying immensely. I still have the Dartzeel and sold the Dagostino. I will be trying some tube gear shortly having taken delivery of a Conrad Johnson GAT preamp (my second one because I loved it so much) and ART mono blocks. This gear is simply stunning. I have an EAR 890 amp and 868 preamp coming in a few weeks as well for a different flavor. I am keen to try my tube gear on my TAD CR-1's because I am in love with my CJ GAT/ART on my Studio2. I suspect both tube kits will sound awesome on my TADs as well.

This is based on my taste which runs to the warmer side of neutral and I am will to give up a little for awesome treble/midrange.

Don't keep us waiting too much longer! We are just as anxious to hear as you are! If not more so! ;)
 
Don't keep us waiting too much longer! We are just as anxious to hear as you are! If not more so! ;)

Ha!

LLoyd, my GAT/ART is outstanding. I've never felt this way about any other combo. It's head and shoulders better, well above everything else that I've had. In my opinion.
 
Ha!

LLoyd, my GAT/ART is outstanding. I've never felt this way about any other combo. It's head and shoulders better, well above everything else that I've had. In my opinion.

I really wish I could hear it in my system...perfectly happy with my system. But always always great to hear magical combinations. I am sure this is truly one of them. Now we need to find what speakers you are going to keep with them!
 
I really wish I could hear it in my system...perfectly happy with my system. But always always great to hear magical combinations. I am sure this is truly one of them. Now we need to find what speakers you are going to keep with them!

That will be the fun part. :)
 
Decisions, decisions...

Yes Joe, Joost, I got a lot of recommendations about the Dartzel. I am sure they are great. I will try the 108; that is no problem and is available. I think they will move the speakers all right, but not sure it will not be lacking on dynamics on the large passages, impact, deeps bass and all that. I now about sensitivity of 90. But still... we will see. The monoblocks I am sure would be perfect from that perspective and would only be a matter of liking the house sound and the synergy. But I don't think I will be able to try these at home, and I don't see how I am going to commit at that level if not.

Joe I am going to keep the momentums 2 more days than expected over the weekend. The ARCs to try are not coming till Monday or Tuesday. The Momentums are great amps. Very impressive what they do for the size... very dynamic, and fantastic mids and mid lows. If they would just be a bit more extended, fast... they would be perfect. They are very gentle. When they play music, they seem to go round the notes, and not thought them... Not sure if it makes sense. I wish they were a bit more detailed. But otherwise a fantastic pair of amps. WHat is it that you didn't like and ended up selling?

I want to listen too to the Gryphon Mephisto solos and the boulder 2160. I think these can be great candidates (besides the Dartzel) with the TAD M600 and perhaps the ARC 750 although these are heat monsters and not too practical in warm climate.
 
Hi Eli,

I can not put my finger on it. I do have to say it was some of the functions of the preamp and not the sound that turned me off. One of my intentions about the Dag Momentums is to get the monoblocks, just for the sake of more power and all that goes with it. I agree with your assessment but for me it depends on the speaker. I like what the Dagostino did on my TADs but not on my Revel Studio2. I know the Alexia/Dagostino combo is wonderful as well, so synergy is very important eventhough some say it does not exist. I strongly prefer the sound of the Dagostino preamp through the Dartzeel amp over the Dartzeel preamp through the Dartzeel amp. I am not sure why, but I lost some of that three dimensional and holographic sound going to the Dartzeel/Dartzeel combo. I know my GAT is a great compliment to my Dartzeel amp from past experience.
 
Decisions, decisions...

Joe I am going to keep the momentums 2 more days than expected over the weekend. The ARCs to try are not coming till Monday or Tuesday. The Momentums are great amps. Very impressive what they do for the size... very dynamic, and fantastic mids and mid lows. If they would just be a bit more extended, fast... they would be perfect. They are very gentle. When they play music, they seem to go round the notes, and not thought them... Not sure if it makes sense. I wish they were a bit more detailed. But otherwise a fantastic pair of amps. WHat is it that you didn't like and ended up selling?

I want to listen too to the Gryphon Mephisto solos and the boulder 2160. I think these can be great candidates (besides the Dartzel) with the TAD M600 and perhaps the ARC 750 although these are heat monsters and not too practical in warm climate.

Having spent some time with a few of these, I can say I really like them all. Gryphon is my favourite (though I have only heard and owned Antileon and Colosseum). I find the Momentums a beautiful amp with a fine, filigreed treble. Is it an endless reserve of high current reserves like the big Boulder 2060 or Gryphon amp? I do not know technically speaking, but from my auditions with big Wilsons (my reference since I've got them at home)...I did not get that sense the way I do when I hear Gryphon or Boulder. In the right system, you'll never need it any way, and the Momentums do have nice power. I have heard the TAD Ref monos in an all TAD system...so I really cannot tell what was what...all I can say is that instinctively I was not drawn to learn more about those electronics even though I admired them.

If you do hear the big Boulders (I really liked the 2060) or the Gryphons, would be most interested in your views...particularly the Mephistos.
 
Hi Lloyd,

The Gryphons I think I am going to be able to listen to the stereo initially in my system. The boulders dont know still. In any case I will share my views for sure. I am sure you would love them...

I am also intrigued by the TADs. Share your views in an all tad system but want to see how they sound with my own gear to asses the amp performance alone.
 
I also would have the TAD M600's at the top of the list. Check out sweetmusic69's posts over at AA. He went through a similar exercize on the CR1's and seems to be very experienced and meticulous in his search approach (he ended up buying the M600's).

There have been mentions that the M600's plus a somewhat more 'musical' preamp & source is the ultimate way to drive TAD ref speakers.

I was HUGELY impressed with all TAD system M600/C600/D600 however would agree that it may lean a touch too much to the analytical side and may not be as involving musically. Hard to tell though at shows, I always ask to play some 'normal' music, i.e. stuff I listen to and enjoy at home, but TAD demo's seem to always have only a limited musical selection of the cream of the crop high res master tape files and audiophile approved redbook.
 
Hi Lloyd,

The Gryphons I think I am going to be able to listen to the stereo initially in my system. The boulders dont know still. In any case I will share my views for sure. I am sure you would love them...

I am also intrigued by the TADs. Share your views in an all tad system but want to see how they sound with my own gear to asses the amp performance alone.

Look forward to hearing what you think! All great options without doubt. When do you think you will be able to audition these?
 

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