Liquid-filled power cables?

[FrantzM]

What about coupling caps in tube circuits? CJ claims that even the quality of the caps makes a difference in the power supply. Tell you one thing. Caps sure make a difference in Xovers and for many, many reasons.

Myles

It is quite possible that different caps have different characteristics... In any electronics component you are bound to find different types... I am OK with that .. What we are trying to establish here is the rationale behind the liquid with the special polymer in a Power Cable and what it does to the sound ... due to the special construction and material with "unusual properties" used... My contention is that this is eerily similar to the oil of a close descendant of dinosaurs ... ..

By the way, that CJ says it, doesn't constitute a proof to me .. not that I don't respect and love several of their gears.. One of those "quiet" manufacturers of consistent High Quality gears ..

 

[terryj]

Myles

It is quite possible that different caps have different characteristics... In any electronics component you are bound to find different types... I am OK with that .. What we are trying to establish here is the rationale behind the liquid with the special polymer in a Power Cable and what it does to the sound ... due to the special construction and material with "unusual properties" used... My contention is that this is eerily similar to the oil of a close descendant of dinosaurs ... ..

see, that is the trouble we come across in MOST forums around the world, we all have to tiptoe around just hinting at the real issue, but never allowed to come out and just say it.

what irks me no end is why, exactly, are the delicate sensibilities of of the precious audiophile the things that are protected? HOW does doing that advance the state of audio??

The real question is NOT do these cables use polymers or whatnot, NOT whether cern or nasa use polymers...bet they do...nor even do they use these physics groundbreaking cables (that only ever appear in audio????? go figure)...bet they don't....but whether or not any of this is audible. (has never been to date)

BUT, we are not allowed to use or mention DBT?? WHY are the audiophile claims so protected across virtually every forum on the planet? (most do not allow dbt discussion)

Ok, lets accept the state of affairs as the way it is, the reverse of that is why can there not be a place where SOME discussion is allowed? As far as I can tell, (to date at least) this forum is and has been remarkably polite and well behaved at most times, granted that could change as it grows, human nature and all that jazz, so maybe just maybe, for a little while at least this forum may be able to host the most productive discussion of that topic.

A window of opportunity I guess.

But, with rules like that in place we see the absurd farce of people reduced to arguing with science or human perceptions against what is essentially a religious stance, that of belief. (potentially, if someone CAN truly hear it I have no problem with it).

But, we are not allowed the basic 'right' to see whether or not any claim made is true or false.

OTOH, *they* can, and do, make any claim they like no matter how far fetched any individual claim may or may not be.

Quick question, from which area has all the advances in audio (if you feel there have been advances) come in the last thirty years.....the good solid engineers that apply what we have learned about the universe or the 'alternative physics crowd'???

If your answer to that question is in any way similar to mine, then you may be able to grasp why I am so confused why these audiophiles seem to have special rights.....

 

[The Smokester]

...CJ claims that even the quality of the caps makes a difference in the power supply...

Wavestream would make this claim about the power caps, too, and I don't argue with the result but never participated in the comparison which surely must be hard to do in a controlled way. I have see the switching box they used to compare multiple coupling capacitors, though. I have had all my amps updated, usually to significant improvement, but other changes were also made so it is hard to say what effect changing the coupling caps actually had.

So, is there in fact any measured data accessible to the amateur that shows the difference in actual caps used in audiophile systems? By that I mean a comparison of traces for various capacitors undergoing discharge.

 

[DonH50]

Ironically, I just got chastised on another forum for suggesting that using coax to RCA connectors for speaker wire was a bad idea due to the small conductor size adding excessive resistance (I was told I worry too much; I thought I just answered a question). Meanwhile, over here (should that be "hear"? ), we're arguing the merits of polymer power cables...

I used to have a couple of capacitor studies but have no hope of finding them now. If somebody wants to send me a bunch of caps I'd be glad to test them when I can. The main factors I recall were noise (esp. in electrolytics) and hysteresis due to charge trapping in some dielectrics. Teflon and polypropylene were best. Whether you can hear the differences measured are, then as now, up for debate. As it turns out, some of the effects can be heard, but as usual the real issue is if you would hear them amidst all the music instead of in a test situation, and indeed if some of the effects even really occur when a "busy" signal is applied. - Don

 

[MylesBAstor]

Wavestream would make this claim about the power caps, too, and I don't argue with the result but never participated in the comparison which surely must be hard to do in a controlled way. I have see the switching box they used to compare multiple coupling capacitors, though. I have had all my amps updated, usually to significant improvement, but other changes were also made so it is hard to say what effect changing the coupling caps actually had.

So, is there in fact any measured data accessible to the amateur that shows the difference in actual caps used in audiophile systems? By that I mean a comparison of traces for various capacitors undergoing discharge.

I'm sure you've seen this:

http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_1.pdf

http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_2.pdf

http://waltjung.org/PDFs/A_RealTime_Signal_Test_For_Capacitor_Quality.pdf

http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/pickcap.htm

 

[DonH50]

I have those issues with Walt Jung's articles! I really miss Audio... The John Curl article is one I had in mind; I'd forgotten Walt was co-author. AA is another mag I miss (is it still around?)

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

The discussion is moving toward the "sound" of capacitors so we are OK with the fact that that these polymer-filled power cables can do nothing special besides being expensive ...? Ok!

then let's move on to capacitors.. I started reading the first pdf ... the testing methodology seems incorrect to me ...

I have a source driving a capacitor which is ok. My reservations:

What do we know about the stability of the source under capacitive loads ?
What is to tell me that what I am seeing is the source distortion and not the capacitor's?
What are the source distortion characteristics?
Is the source able to be stable under a quasi-pure capacitive load?
What are the physical conditions (Temperature for one ) under which the test was conducted ...

A search on the internet revealed that the source has a rather important output impedance ,seems to low to be a true current source and too high to be a voltage source .. 'seems to me this ST 1700B is a THD analyzer for audio components that is amps or preamp ... that usually have a less agressive impedance ...

As I said these guys know about Audio circuitry more than I ever will but this particular test seems flawed to me .. Not conclusive from first perusal ...

I could be wrong ... waiting to be corrected ...


Frantz

 

[FrantzM]

Tomelex

I am OK with Jung being the Man and knowing as I have said more that I ever will. The methodology does not seem correct to me .. As to reject distortion that would come from the test equipment itself .. In any experience these have to be noted or remarked to the reader. I simply saw a jump to distortion reading which to me could be anything ...

We have digressed quite a bit .. ... from a power cables to discussion about capacitors ...but hey! that's the way of Internet fora

 

[MylesBAstor]

Tomelex

I am OK with Jung being the Man and knowing as I have said more that I ever will. The methodology does not seem correct to me .. As to reject distortion that would come from the test equipment itself .. In any experience these have to be noted or remarked to the reader. I simply saw a jump to distortion reading which to me could be anything ...

We have digressed quite a bit .. ... from a power cables to discussion about capacitors ...but hey! that's the way of Internet fora

Aren't cables capacitors

 

[The Smokester]

Thanks for the references, Myles. They are just what I wanted. I can't read them until I get to a bigger monitor at home but I will. I know caps are old news but I just never had time to look at the data...Now I will and learn.

It's one thing to believe in a scientific approach to audio. It's quite another to chase every detail down and truly understand what many have spent their lives becoming expert in.

 

[mauidan]

Interesting thread.

Over 70 replies and only one person has heard the cables.;-)

 

[MylesBAstor]

Interesting thread.

Over 70 replies and only one person has heard the cables.;-)

They don't make any difference so there's no need to listen Just keep repeating until self-brainwashed.

FTR, Jerry is one of the really good guys in the industry. Have known him for many years and know a few people on our staff use some of Jerry's cables and AC line products and swear by them!

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

If you cryo these liquid filled cables your audio sound goers into "deep freeze"!

 

[Nicholas Bedworth]

We're supposed to evaluate equipment by listening to it? Maybe I should start reviewing Shakti Stones... much less controversial.

Fellows, (ladies?) my main point was that for 30 years, all my listening was done with relatively conventional, mult-metal-conductor power cables, and they are very, very good (AudioQuest, WireWorld). And the liquid conductive cable deal was completely new to me, although as noted it's not exactly a novel idea.

What was quite surprising to me was that this completely different technology was just as good, perhaps better in some ways. And another attraction of the liquid polymer cables is that they are extremely simply constructed (with top-notch terminators each end) and very flexible, in fact, limp, compared to the regular cables which are not at all compliant.

So far, all positives, no negatives.

Next up, my impressions of Jerry's Oracle power conditioner... fortunately, the unit he built has liquid cables inside, replacing the standard 10 gauge solid silver conductors...

 

[FrantzM]

They don't make any difference so there's no need to listen Just keep repeating until self-brainwashed.

FTR, Jerry is one of the really good guys in the industry. Have known him for many years and know a few people on our staff use some of Jerry's cables and AC line products and swear by them!

I get the joke and I knew that mind would not be changed.. It remains that the arguments of how this cable follow any science were weak.

I have often noticed the reference to the character of the designers pops up from time to time. It has NOTHING to do with the product, the designer could be a evacuation hole or an angel, it wouldn't matter; The proof is the performance or lack thereof. If a product does nothing it should be called out. Fortunately Real Science helps us sorting out tings that can't work and this product has all the making of one which belongs to that category
Pseudo-Science is too much a fixture of High End Audio, it needs to be extirpated.Just shouting "Trust your ears" when you all know how unreliable our senses are and how easily we can be be fooled is not the solution. Skepticism advances knowledge not utter, naive and often surprising gullibility of the kind we audiophiles display at times.
I am out for now

 

[The Smokester]

...Next up, my impressions of Jerry's Oracle power conditioner... fortunately, the unit he built has liquid cables inside, replacing the standard 10 gauge solid silver conductors...

OK Nicholas. Our knives got sharpened after those liquid power cables. Bring on the power conditioner.

 

[The Smokester]

Nicholas, All kidding aside, I finished reading the links that Myles provided. So my question now is, are there more detailed measurements available that might show changes in these liquid power cords' properties versus frequency? Changes that happen to be beneficial.

 

[mauidan]

Now there are two people on this forum that have heard the Liquid Conductor cables.

Heard Nick's system again yesterday and the only changes from a week ago are Liquid Conductor cables and power conditioner.

IMO, all of the positive things the system did have been enhanced by a greater sense of natural quietness. The system sounds more open and expansive.

We also had some fun listening to the digital output of my iPad.

 

[Nicholas Bedworth]

Aha! That makes TWO people, which is a majority. Sorry. We won.

Listen, (as it were) my main observation, which was surprising to me, was that the liquid-filled power cables sounded just as well as high-end "conventional" power cables. Huh. Off to a good start. The Holy Grail of cabling is that it sounds like it isn't there, and these Audio Magic cables seem to be converging on not-there-ness.

Regarding measurements, my personal bias would be towards measuring the phase shifting and reflectances; cables of course are complicated electrical entities, plus the interfaces, so good luck modeling their behavior without a lot of effort and computation. And the modeling has to include the coherence of the various harmonic structures and all that, so the differences can quickly become quite subtle. Some harmonics shift this way, others that way, and the cable picks up EMI and mechanical noise from the environment, and the fun begins.

 

[muralman1]

My cables, ultra thin copper ribbon for the positive, and an aluminum ribbon for the negative are sandwiched in thinner Kapton tape. They interface in Silver Rhodium spades. What do I get from these? Everything any CD dishes out. A grand piano sounds real from the lowest notes to the highest, plus any dynamic swing and at any loudness. They can just as well conduct a jazz band with trumpets blaring, and cympals crashing. If anyone wants to check my veracity, I am in Sacramento.