Lampizator Horizon v. dCS Vivaldi Apex Listening Comparison

[Golum]

I fully understand your standpoint/view and it is valid 100%. Using tube gear in the entire chain with some components I do not play with tubes and use them as they arrived from the factory.
In this concrete topic we are merely bringing to attention that two factory delivered products play close or not so close in their native state, where one will stay as is and another one with a wish of the potential owner can play objectively better with a max 15sec effort.

 

[bonzo75]

Also valid is wanting to buy a fully completed and finished product as it comes from the factory -- and not making any changes to it.

Also valid is to not take 15 seconds to learn, and to claim it as a right. Can't argue against that. You can install a whole system and say I don't want to make any changes to it. Can't argue against that either.

 

[Lee]

Dear Francisco,

I heard dSC products numerous times in the 1990s on various dealer systems. I consistently found the sound to be thin and sterile and "digital-ish."

Over two decades later I heard the same sonic signature from the Apex.

I am not sure what you mean about a "digital list." I played several of the same "test" tracks I always play. It seems spurious to now blame the analog-to-digital conversion of my test tracks for the sound I heard from the Apex. I did not play tracks unfavorable to the Apex in isolation. I played the same exact tracks on both DACs, in a direct A/B comparison, with the Apex having a streaming cable advantage, and I came to the sonic conclusions I reported.

Ron,

I feel like perhaps you are in a situation similar to some of my friends who heard brightness in the earlier Wilson Audio designs. Now Wilson brightness is gone and the silk dome tweeter is supremely musical.

Likewise, I am not hearing that dryness or sterile sound in the new Apex products from dCS. It feels like there might be an implementation issue on pk’s system. The sound was harmonically rich and full on the Alexx V’s with Vivaldi Apex at Axpona. This was also true with my audition of the Rossini Apex at local dealer hifibuys.

I guess my point is that sound quality can take a “step change” at the better companies.

 

[Lee]

UPDATE

I returned to pk_LA's house last night for a re-match of Lampizator Horizon versus dCS Apex. On a track I did not know I failed to identify correctly to which DAC we were listening two out of three times.

Last night it took a track I have heard hundreds of times ("Song of Bernadette" by Jennifer Warnes on Famous Blue Raincoat) to be able to tell the DACs apart.

pk_LA reported to me during the last week varying sound quality from the Horizon as the Horizon broke in since my last visit. Did the Lampizator change or did the dCS change?

Brian Berdan believes that, because the Vivaldi stack pk_LA is auditioning was just upgraded with the Apex circuit board, the Apex circuit board needed breaking in. This is a plausible theory. All I know is that the canyon-like gap in sonic attractiveness I heard between the Horizon and the Apex last week has narrowed very considerably. If I had to quantify it I would say the gap has narrowed by at least 75%, and maybe up to 90%.

I still hear directionally the impressions I reported originally, but the amplitude is much lower. I still hear the Horizon as being more resonant and harmonically rich, but by a much smaller extent. I still hear the Apex as having more treble energy, and the Horizon as being slightly more midrange-focused (which I find more natural and more "correct"). I still hear the Apex as being slightly drier-sounding than the Horizon.

Also there still is nothing sonically I can discern about the Apex which I prefer over the Horizon. (pk_LA told me that on some tracks he now prefers the sound of the Apex.)

I still easily prefer the Horizon over the Apex, but somehow the gaps in what I prefer about the Horizon have narrowed very considerably. And the fact that only a week later I had to dig deep and use a track I am extremely familiar just to tell the DACs apart is puzzling.

PS: Alcohol consumption was identical during both listening sessions.

There were noticeable sonic changes on my Rossini DAC. 500 hours needed. Also dCS is very sensitive to clock cables.

 

[Steve Williams]

Actually, it is not like getting a turntable. I think this simply is a defective analogy.

A turntable that pk_LA or I would be getting would not come from the factory with a stock cartridge and a stock tonearm. The Lampizator Horizon comes with stock tubes. There is no reason to believe that Lucasz puts anything other than appropriate tubes in his flagship product.

There are no stock tubes for the Horizon. That comment is misleading IMHO. Lukasz provides to every user the very best tube set he has in house at the moment as the supply chain and cost has gone up significantly. Perhaps this is what you're saying but everyone who has a Horizon either stays with those tubes (which many have) or they do what the Horizon was designed for, specifically the ability to use a plethora of different tube variants. I am not a tube roller but started with the tubes sent to me which I loved . It took me two different tube rolling trials to find a tube set that for my ears and my system provided me the best sound. It is up to every user to decide what sounds best for them. The only change Patrick did was to exchange the KR KT88 for TS KT170 which may have been too much for an already analytic sound

 

[bonzo75]

There is no reason to believe that Lucasz puts anything other than appropriate tubes in his flagship product.

Lukasz made his dacs to not have one stock tube. Your thinking that it should come out of the factory with a fixed tube is very limited. Hence I provided the TT analogy, next you will be saying you want a TT to come out with a fixed arm and cart. It is meant to be flexible. That's the whole idea.

Also, no designer will provide NOS tubes with any product, because every time you buy a NOS tube, price of the tubes go up with each purchase. If Kondo, for example, started providing Amperex, United, or WE 242C with each of their kagura or ongaku etc, the price of the tubes will get to be a million dollars. They provide current production tubes that they can source at a fixed rate. Users can then knock themselves out optimizing.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron,

I feel like perhaps you are in a situation similar to some of my friends who heard brightness in the earlier Wilson Audio designs. Now Wilson brightness is gone and the silk dome tweeter is supremely musical.

Likewise, I am not hearing that dryness or sterile sound in the new Apex products from dCS. It feels like there might be an implementation issue on pk’s system. The sound was harmonically rich and full on the Alexx V’s with Vivaldi Apex at Axpona. This was also true with my audition of the Rossini Apex at local dealer hifibuys.

I guess my point is that sound quality can take a “step change” at the better companies.

Hi Lee!

I understand everything you wrote. I was surprised that I perceived the dCS Apex to sound conceptually similar to what I remembered from decades earlier.

I agree that companies can make a "step change." Sometimes companies make a wholesale change to their "house sound."

All I know is what I heard a week ago during the first comparison in that particular system with those particular examples of those particular DACs. I stand by those comparative impressions.

I also stand by my very significant impressions "update" to that first comparison.

 

[Lee]

Hi Lee!

I understand everything you wrote. I was surprised that I perceived the dCS Apex to sound conceptually similar to what I remembered from decades earlier.

I agree that companies can make a "step change." Sometimes companies make a wholesale change to their "house sound."

All I know is what I heard a week ago during the first comparison in that particular system with those particular examples of those particular DACs. I stand by those comparative impressions.

I also stand by my very significant impressions "update" to that first comparison.

Sure, that makes sense. I wrote that before I saw your more recent impressions, which is why I posted again and shared the observation on break-in that I had with the Rossini.

 

[Eldar]

I had the pleasure last night of hearing pk_LA's new system for the very first time! This was my first opportunity to see and hear the Wilson Audio Alexx V loudspeaker, and the dCS Vivaldi Apex digital stack.

pk_LA began by playing a vocal track I had never heard before. He did not alert me as to which DAC we were listening. We listened to the track all of the way through. Then he played it again, on the other DAC. Within 60 seconds I said I believed that we now were listening to the Horizon. He told me I was correct.

pk_LA made many track selections over the course of the evening. I selected:

"Landslide" by Fleetwood Mac on Fleetwood Mac

"Witness" by Sarah MacLachlan on Surfacing

"Hallelujah" by Jeff Buckley on Grace

"Hotel California" by The Eagles (live version)

"Walk on the Wild Side" by Suzanne Vega on An Evening of New York Songs and Stories

"I've Got the Music In Me" by Thelma Houston on I've Got the Music In Me

My initial impressions of the Horizon versus the Apex:

1) I heard a harmonic richness and instrumental decay on the Horizon which was truncated on the Apex.

2) I heard on the Apex a traditional digital dryness and sterile menthol sonic quality which has always been my personal tell-tale sign of digital that I do not care for.

3) I feel the perceived frequency response of the Apex is centered in the upper midrange to treble, whereas I feel the perceived frequency response of the Horizon is centered in the mid-range (like how I perceive good analog playback).

4) I heard greater depth and dimensionality from the Horizon. The Apex sounded "flatter" in comparison.

5) On each track that I selected and with which I am very familiar the Horizon presented the music in a way that reminded me of vinyl. The music sounded "right"; it sounded the way I am accustomed to these very familiar tracks sounding.

The Apex presented the music in a way that reminded me of the kind of conspicuously digital sound I just don't care for. The Horizon sounded significantly more "musical" to me.

pk_LA´s system is clearly a very impressive setup and I am sure it sounds wonderful. However, in the comparisons you have made, I am still a bit puzzled by your notes above.

When playing on a system, we do not listen to individual components, but to the entire system. By swapping components, as you did, we can listen to how individual components influence the listening experience of that particular system. Individual components may hide or emphasize positive or negative qualities in the system and I wonder if that is the case here.

I have not heard the Boulder 3060, but I have heard a number of other Boulder amps and in particular the 3050, since I almost bought it. They have all been great amps, transparent, analytical, dynamic, but, in my view, a bit on the dry side. Combining a tubed DAC, as the Lampizator, to a Boulder amp, may well be a match made in heaven, whereas a dCS Vivaldi stack may double up on some of the amplifiers edgy qualities, giving the results you are describing.

Like you, I am primarily an analog man and it took me a long time to embrace digital. It actually did not happen until I heard the dCS Vivaldi 2.0 in a Pass Labs and Martin Logan system. Currently I am using the dCS stack, but with an Ypsilon VPS100 MkII and Hyperion amplifier chain. Candidates I ended up with, after assessing them along side d´Agostini Momentum and Boulder 3050. I decided on the Hyperions, because they, combined with my analog rig and the dCS stack, gave me the most musical and satisfying combination. Dry, sterile, flat and thin are words I definitely would not use to describe it.

My experience with the dCS/Ypsilon combination is that it is the most musical and "analog" digital audio chain I have ever heard. Some of your descriptions above, and I am not questioning your experience, are totally wrong up against my experience. Based on my own listening, I believe it has to do with the Boulder/DAC experience, where the Boulder/Lampi were made for each other and not so the dCS. However, you made me very curious, so I will now try to get a Lampizator into my system and see how it works there.

 

[KeithR]

The most overrated “audiophile approved” system is dCS Vivaldi/VTL/Wilson w/ TA cables. Most dealers sell this system so the buyers don’t really hear better.

Can only hope the Apex improves things.

 

[microstrip]

The most overrated “audiophile approved” system is dCS Vivaldi/VTL/Wilson w/ TA cables. Most dealers sell this system so the buyers don’t really hear better.

Can only hope the Apex improves things.

I have listened for a very long time to a dCS Vivaldi/VTL 7.5mk3 / Siegfried II/ Wilson XLF / TA cables. I assembled the system myself, never listened to it any dealer of friend. And I can assure you it has given me many hours of great music. IMHO it was not overrated - if it was not for the fact that I moving to another space that does not fit the XLF I would happily keep such system - I still can't think of any other system at the same value that would give me more enjoyment.

 

[Alrainbow]

Hahaha man is this upsetting you lol. we each have our likes
and it’s fine

 

[bonzo75]

pk_LA´s system is clearly a very impressive setup and I am sure it sounds wonderful. However, in the comparisons you have made, I am still a bit puzzled by your notes above.

When playing on a system, we do not listen to individual components, but to the entire system. By swapping components, as you did, we can listen to how individual components influence the listening experience of that particular system. Individual components may hide or emphasize positive or negative qualities in the system and I wonder if that is the case here.

I have not heard the Boulder 3060, but I have heard a number of other Boulder amps and in particular the 3050, since I almost bought it. They have all been great amps, transparent, analytical, dynamic, but, in my view, a bit on the dry side. Combining a tubed DAC, as the Lampizator, to a Boulder amp, may well be a match made in heaven, whereas a dCS Vivaldi stack may double up on some of the amplifiers edgy qualities, giving the results you are describing.

Like you, I am primarily an analog man and it took me a long time to embrace digital. It actually did not happen until I heard the dCS Vivaldi 2.0 in a Pass Labs and Martin Logan system. Currently I am using the dCS stack, but with an Ypsilon VPS100 MkII and Hyperion amplifier chain. Candidates I ended up with, after assessing them along side d´Agostini Momentum and Boulder 3050. I decided on the Hyperions, because they, combined with my analog rig and the dCS stack, gave me the most musical and satisfying combination. Dry, sterile, flat and thin are words I definitely would not use to describe it.

My experience with the dCS/Ypsilon combination is that it is the most musical and "analog" digital audio chain I have ever heard. Some of your descriptions above, and I am not questioning your experience, are totally wrong up against my experience. Based on my own listening, I believe it has to do with the Boulder/DAC experience, where the Boulder/Lampi were made for each other and not so the dCS. However, you made me very curious, so I will now try to get a Lampizator into my system and see how it works there.

Lampi is awesome in Martin Logan systems. The valves really add a much needed density to the panels. And I have heard vivaldi stack with CLX with both constellation and audio research electronics it was awful

 

[thedudeabides]

In the end, all good systems are a result of room / component synergy.

 

[Lee]

In the end, all good systems are a result of room / component synergy.

Loads of truth to this.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Last week at pk_LA we compared the Infigo Audio Method 4 DAC (MSRP $35,000) to the dCS Vilvaldi Apex DAC. The Method 4 is designed by Hans Looman, a Dutchie from Delft, The Netherlands, who now lives in Canada. Hans is the CEO and Founder of Infigo Audio. Hans was very straightforward, very low-key and very knowledgeable about digital audio circuit design.

On a couple of the tracks with which I was unfamiliar I could not tell which DAC was which. But on familiar tracks I could determine which was the Method 4 and which was the Apex.

Overall I found the Method 4 to be smoother and slightly warmer and more analog-sounding than the Apex. I found the Method 4 to offer generally slightly greater decay and more harmonic resonance than the Apex.

On Jeff Buckley's "Hallelujah" on Grace the attention-grabbing guitar pluck in the beginning of the song sounded synthetic and unnaturally edgy on the Apex. On the Method 4 the guitar pluck sounded like I am accustomed to it sounding. It sounded more organic and golden, rather than unnatural and silvery.

The last track we used to compare the DACs showed us something interesting. This particular track had a dance vibe. When we played it on the Infigo we felt we had a bit of a drive literally to get up and dance. Playing this track on the dCS I had no such feeling to get into, or to connect with, the music. The dCS made this lively track sound clinical and unengaging.

The dCS Vivaldi Apex is the champion of resolution, detail, dynamics, and low-frequency punch. To my ears it is the sound of the Boulder electronics in the functionality of a DAC.

The Lampizator Horizon remains my favorite DAC in this on-going audition and comparison process. Interestingly I preferred the Method 4 over the Nagra, even though the Nagra has a tube amplification stage. To my ears the Method 4 sounded a touch more natural and tube-like (this, for me, is a compliment) than did the Nagra.

 

[morricab]

Last week at pk_LA we compared the Infigo Audio Method 4 DAC (MSRP $35,000) to the dCS Vilvaldi Apex DAC. The Method 4 is designed by Hans Looman, a Dutchie from Delft, The Netherlands, who now lives in Canada. Hans is the CEO and Founder of Infigo Audio. Hans was very straightforward, very low-key and very knowledgeable about digital audio circuit design.

On a couple of the tracks with which I was unfamiliar I could not tell which DAC was which. But on familiar tracks I could determine which was the Method 4 and which was the Apex.

Overall I found the Method 4 to be smoother and slightly warmer and more analog-sounding than the Apex. I found the Method 4 to offer generally slightly greater decay and more harmonic resonance than the Apex.

On Jeff Buckley's "Hallelujah" on Grace the attention-grabbing guitar pluck in the beginning of the song sounded synthetic and unnaturally edgy on the Apex. On the Method 4 the guitar pluck sounded like I am accustomed to it sounding. It sounded more organic and golden, rather than unnatural and silvery.

The last track we used to compare the DACs taught us something interesting. This particular track had a dance vibe. When we played it on the Infigo we felt we had a bit of a drive literally to get up and dance. Playing this track on the dCS I had no such feeling to get into, or to connect with the music. The dCS made this lively track sound clinical and unengaging.

The dCS Vivaldi Apex is the champion of resolution, detail, dynamics, and low-frequency punch. To my ears it is the sound of the Boulder electronics in the functionality of a DAC.

The Lampizator Horizon remains my favorite DAC in this on-going audition and comparison process. Interestingly I preferred the Method 4 over the Nagra, even though the Nagra has a tube amplification stage. To my ears the Method 4 sounded a touch more natural and tube-like (this, for me, is a compliment) than did the Nagra.

Interesting comparisons Ron. What is in this Infigo DAC? Never heard of that one before.

 

[pk_LA]

Interesting comparisons Ron. What is in this Infigo DAC? Never heard of that one before

They have shown up rather recently. Or, at least, I just noticed them last year when they made some truly impressive sound at the Washington show (I heard only from reports and videos). Then they showed up at the LA show where I saw them in person. Their stuff sounded great. As such, I asked for an audition which Hans happily agreed to.

Method 4 | Infigo Audio Inc

The Method 4 is a high end ultra pure digital to analog music converter that will reveal every musical detail of your digital music library.

www.infigoaudio.com

 

[PeterA]

Ron, will you be adding digital to your system when it is set up?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, will you be adding digital to your system when it is set up?

Yes; I have always planned to add a modest digital set-up using only Qobuz, as I think it is nice to be able to hand to guests an iPad and to let them play their favorite music.