Koetsu

[XV-1]

Btw - never heard of a cartridge that expensive.. LOL..!!

-As hobby money is no money ☝

especially when it's on a 1210GAE

 

[strapper211]

Hi,
I have been dealing with Koetsu's for 40 years and I never seen
a tilt like that in the back and I have mounted or seen dozens of them.
If that was a rebuild it was done wrong,I would make them redo
it.If it was a new cartridge have it checked out by the new
Koetsu makers.
That picture looks ridiculous.

Robert

 

[keithc]

Hi,
I have been dealing with Koetsu's for 40 years and I never seen
a tilt like that in the back and I have mounted or seen dozens of them.
If that was a rebuild it was done wrong,I would make them redo
it.If it was a new cartridge have it checked out by the new
Koetsu makers.
That picture looks ridiculous.

Robert

Note that I could have just mounted this cart without any shims in a traditional eyeball-mounting approach using a protractor.
When sending in a cart for microscopic geometry analysis, this is what we get...

 

[keithc]

I´d never accept a cart like that.......totally unsellable too IMO

That's an interesting point of view.
I think this is exactly the point of J.R.'s videos.... most cartridges out there have a significant amount of unit-to-unit variation in all axes affecting the stylus tip, and that even if you just look at a cartridge before buying this is not indicative of how it behaves under dynamic load. Probably the question to ask is how often J.R. sees a cartridge that requires no shim correction....

edit: Forgot to mention -- this cart was sent to 2 separate experienced cartridge repair shops (the first for re-tipping), and both looked at the Koetsu assembly and said it was normal/good and that it sounded fine. Neither looked at the cantilever angle and said, "Whoa, this is messed up!"

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

That's an interesting point of view.
I think this is exactly the point of J.R.'s videos.... most cartridges out there have a significant amount of unit-to-unit variation in all axes affecting the stylus tip, and that even if you just look at a cartridge before buying this is not indicative of how it behaves under dynamic load. Probably the question to ask is how often J.R. sees a cartridge that requires no shim correction....

What's also interesting 'keithc' is the question of ;
Is there a pattern from Manufacturer to Manufacturer on continuous poor cartridge stylus alignments etc. from cartridge to cartridge they build ?

Also from a reality check; I would guess building such a thing as a phono cartridge (especially by hand) isn't easy especially with the tolerances we are talking about for a respectable SRA, VTA, Azimuth, Zenith, etc. with having to use quite power microscopes, a steady hand, good eyesight, good brain to hand coordination etc. etc.
So just on pure human error alone for these hand built cartridges, there is quite a high risk for a cartridge being built to meet such achievable close tolerances having a number of key faults !

 

[DasguteOhr]

Btw - never heard of a cartridge that expensive.. LOL..!!

-As hobby money is no money ☝

The environment also has to be right, Johan, otherwise the cartridge, even that expensive one, is of no use. A Cotter SUT with FR 64s tonearm brings the Koetsu to sing my opinion. For me, the most harmonious reproduction is with these semi-precious stone koetsus.
then they have slam, sensitivity and soulful reproduction then you won't want to get out of your chair.

 

[keithc]

What's also interesting 'keithc' is the question of ;
Is there a pattern from Manufacturer to Manufacturer on continuous poor cartridge stylus alignments etc. from cartridge to cartridge they build ?

Also from a reality check; I would guess building such a thing as a phono cartridge (especially by hand) isn't easy especially with the tolerances we are talking about for a respectable SRA, VTA, Azimuth, Zenith, etc. with having to use quite power microscopes, a steady hand, good eyesight, good brain to hand coordination etc. etc.
So just on pure human error alone for these hand built cartridges, there is quite a high risk for a cartridge being built to meet such achievable close tolerances having a number of key faults !

I've never met Sugano-san, but I mean, cmon he was like building these in his late 70s? 80s?
Reminds me that my father-in-law is about to have cervical laminectomy done by some university hospital professors in their 70s...

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

The environment also has to be right, Johan, otherwise the cartridge, even that expensive one, is of no use. A Cotter SUT with FR 64s tonearm brings the Koetsu to sing my opinion. For me, the most harmonious reproduction is with these semi-precious stone koetsus.
then they have slam, sensitivity and soulful reproduction then you won't want to get out of your chair.

same with my Kiseki Agaat Ruby 2 compared to Blackheart and both Purplehearts, all NOS
the stone body does appear to give some more bounce and presence

 

[DasguteOhr]

same with my Kiseki Agaat Ruby 2 compared to Blackheart and both Purplehearts, all NOS
the stone body does appear to give some more bounce and presence

For me a perfect match mitch cotter mk 2l 1- 6ohms gain 26db koetsu.
I love kisekis too really

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I've never met Sugano-san, but I mean, cmon he was like building these in his late 70s? 80s?
Reminds me that my father-in-law is about to have cervical laminectomy done by some university hospital professors in their 70s...

So if he is still building cartridges now, how good is his hand to brain coordination, eyesight and dexterity etc. at the age he is now ! For such a precise manufacturing activity as hand building a cartridge, the statistical and actual human error and repeatability of preciseness etc. is huge from cartridge to cartridge no matter how expensive the cartridge is !

Another interesting discussion for me, is no matter how expensive the cartridge is, having the cartridge installed correctly to get the best and maximum performance from it is for me the most important criteria for a cartridge.
And if the cartridge is very expensive due to exotic and different materials being used for its construction etc. and is advertised by the Manufacturer as having superior sound quality (what ever that means as such a subject is purely subjective and personal to the person listening to music with it) etc. then it's even more important to have the cartridge initially analyzed and correctly installed to the head shell (i.e. by Wally Tools for instance), before using it - especially something like an expensive Koetsu etc) !

It would therefore be very interesting to know and see how many Owners & Users with high end TT set-ups have such cartridge analysis and installation for their uber expensive cartridges !

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

For me a perfect match mitch cotter mk 2l 1- 6ohms gain 26db koetsu.
I love kisekis too really
View attachment 158541

I´ve had this Kiseki journey, theese last few months:
all NOS
Blue
Purpleheart
Purpleheart Saphire
Agaat Ruby2
Blackheart
the keepers so far are Agaat and Blackheart
also have a Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum retipped by Soundsmith and an original Urushi Wajima...the latter sounds very like the Blackheart...maybe slightly tighter lo.end

 

[DasguteOhr]

I´ve had this Kiseki journey, theese last few months:
all NOS
Blue
Purpleheart
Purpleheart Saphire
Agaat Ruby2
Blackheart
the keepers so far are Agaat and Blackheart
also have a Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum retipped by Soundsmith and an original Urushi Wajima...the latter sounds very like the Blackheart...maybe slightly tighter lo.end

For kiseki mostly high-impedance MCs, I would recommend a Silvercore Pro SUT 1:10. It plays very cleanly and is highly dynamic, resulting in a great synergy for me.

I use them in all my DIY phono preamps. Neutral, no coloration. Cartridges already produce enough coloration.

ONE TO TEN PRO ONE TO TWENTY PRO – Silvercore

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

the Ruby is 42R and the Blackheart is 5R
I´ve already ordered 2 Consolidated Audio nano core ag for DaVa Soul and Blackheart

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

The cartridge you are discussing is a 15k cartridge

@Johan K - are you sending your Blue Lace to JR so he can tell you how bad it is, and your hearing
if it's sound good , it is good

That’s not really fair representation of what I do or claim. These aren’t the types of sonic problems that advertise themselves. You only know you’ve been living with them when they are gone.

Cartridge manufacturing has been ignoring the basics of mechanical transcription since at least 1960’s when a paper was done studying the distortion characteristics of VTA. The authors had 15 or so commercially available cartridges at the time and measured the distortion characteristics for each in this parameter. In the final paragraph of the paper, they declared that the majority of cartridge manufacturers are way too high and would do well to get the VTA down in order to reduce second order harmonic distortion. Cartridge manufacturers keep it high for multiple reasons that I’ve gone into before in my videos - none of which are related to fidelity. Even Leif Johansson from Ortofon has publicly agreed with my claims - twice.

You can ignore all of that and study the vertical modulation angle of cutterheads. The answer is right there too! That is actually THE reason my claim that VTA is 9 degrees too high can be substantiated. I go into this in my video on VTA

 

[DasguteOhr]

the Ruby is 42R and the Blackheart is 5R
I´ve already ordered 2 Consolidated Audio nano core ag for DaVa Soul and Blackheart

You certainly didn't do anything wrong; you only hear good things about Berlin transformers. It always depends on your own ideal of how you imagine it should sound like. Maybe at some point you'll make a small leap towards Leipzig Silvercore.

 

[Johan K]

The environment also has to be right, Johan, otherwise the cartridge, even that expensive one, is of no use. A Cotter SUT with FR 64s tonearm brings the Koetsu to sing my opinion. For me, the most harmonious reproduction is with these semi-precious stone koetsus.
then they have slam, sensitivity and soulful reproduction then you won't want to get out of your chair.

That’s what I have all the time! Thanks for reminding us all.

 

[RickS]

So, looking at the compensated Blue Lace, that looks like the azimuth must have been badly skewed as well, the inside rear edge of the stone body is almost contacting the record surface! Add that to the fact it’s supposedly still 9 degrees off as far as VTA? That would drive me up a wall. A refund or perhaps a recommendation of a new cantilever/stylus replacement would seem to have been the best course of action vs an adapter that doesn’t fully correct the problem IMO.

 

[Johan K]

That’s not really fair representation of what I do or claim. These aren’t the types of sonic problems that advertise themselves. You only know you’ve been living with them when they are gone.

Cartridge manufacturing has been ignoring the basics of mechanical transcription since at least 1960’s when a paper was done studying the distortion characteristics of VTA. The authors had 15 or so commercially available cartridges at the time and measured the distortion characteristics for each in this parameter. In the final paragraph of the paper, they declared that the majority of cartridge manufacturers are way too high and would do well to get the VTA down in order to reduce second order harmonic distortion. Cartridge manufacturers keep it high for multiple reasons that I’ve gone into before in my videos - none of which are related to fidelity. Even Leif Johansson from Ortofon has publicly agreed with my claims - twice.

You can ignore all of that and study the vertical modulation angle of cutterheads. The answer is right there too! That is actually THE reason my claim that VTA is 9 degrees too high can be substantiated. I go into this in my video on VTA

@J.R. Boisclair,

So just if you missed the irony of Shane @XV-1 , I have to defend his statement a bit. Shane and Me, have come to have a good relationship due to all the shared music we play and the genres we both like… So his statement was simply to tease me for having a Blue Lace myself - and also due to the fact I run it on my Technics SL-1200G which he is teasing me for as well. It’s all irony between boys and their toys.. LOL…!

Just to be clear!

I am quite sure we both (Me and Shane) would never criticize your knowledge when it comes to cartridge alignments and the things you represent. In the end you ARE the King of the seven angles☝ !

/ Johan

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

@J.R. Boisclair,

So just if you missed the irony of Shane @XV-1 , I have to defend his statement a bit. Shane and Me, have come to have a good relationship due to all the shared music we play and the genres we both like… So his statement was simply to tease me for having a Blue Lace myself - and also due to the fact I run it on my Technics SL-1200G which he is teasing me for as well. It’s all irony between boys and their toys.. LOL…!

Just to be clear!

I am quite sure we both (Me and Shane) would never criticize your knowledge when it comes to cartridge alignments and the things you represent. In the end you ARE the King of the seven angles☝ !

/ Johan

Got it. Thanks for the clarification. Can be tough to read through the subtext (if it is even there to be read) sometimes.

By the way, there is more I do not understand about mechanical transcription than what I do understand about it. So much has not been studied or has not been well studied.

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

So, looking at the compensated Blue Lace, that looks like the azimuth must have been badly skewed as well, the inside rear edge of the stone body is almost contacting the record surface! Add that to the fact it’s supposedly still 9 degrees off as far as VTA? That would drive me up a wall. A refund or perhaps a recommendation of a new cantilever/stylus replacement would seem to have been the best course of action vs an adapter that doesn’t fully correct the problem IMO.

The azimuth is only 0.9 degrees which the average of most cartridges (well 0.86 degrees by my database). You will be very unlikely to get a refund/repair on SRA/VTA specs due to their angular error because the industry doesn’t index these angles to how lacquers are actually cut. Claims for egregious zenith error (past +/-5 degrees for most stylus profiles) or crosstalk are more likely to meet with repair/refund.