IS there an absolute sound?

[Robh3606]

The method we use today is not helpful and in fact IMHO prevents us from ever making real progress.

Hello Elliot

What do you see as the method we use today?? I don't see one. The reference recordings would at least give everyone some common ground to work from. What else is there??

I believe that we have done a terrible job showing the public what is truly possible.

As an Industry?? Asside from showroom demo's what else is there?? Demo's at industry shows mostly don't cut it. At least the shows I have been at. The sound quality is all over the place and can vary from day to day as they get the systems dialed in.

Rob

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot, if you want to come to St. Louis and have a listen, you are invited. I'm not sure my wife would approve of someone who grew-up on the streets of NYC, but I won't tell her.

I would agree that a system wouldn't sound 100% like the actual performance, but I believe we are close.

I know you've heard alot of systems and have much knowledge. Perhaps I'm full of it. Maybe you will shame me in front of WBF. Who cares, as long as I learn something.

Thank you for the invite and perhaps someday I can take you up on it. Women usually like me even if I am from NY my mother taught me manners and charm LOL.
Thanks,
E

 

[Elliot G.]

Hello Elliot

What do you see as the method we use today?? I don't see one. The reference recordings would at least give everyone some common ground to work from. What else is there??

Robb, This is actually my point. There are no qualifications at all to be a dealer other than writing a check. In my area there are so many hobbyist dealers and by that I mean that they have little or no experience but they hads the cash to buy some gear and Viola.
There is no official training and there are few great showrooms. I have not been everywhere so I can not or will not say that there is no good sound in stores. I know there is. The financial model today is just insane. You need so much space and so much gear and then its virtually impossible to make money.
I have tried for years to get the "industry to copperate" and produce some "demo's" that would show off what the HE can really do. It is impossible to get anyone to join forces...
I can give you a bunch of ideas that can work but I am just one guy without the capital to make it happen.
We have all these shows put on in hotel rooms...what can I say is this the best place for an audio demonstration? I don't think so.
Having done shows here is the truth. You get into a room with perhaps a day to get all your gear, unpack it, set it up,make it work and then a few hours to get it dialed in. This is an impossible taskt oget great sound in this manner. PERIOD
Can you get decent sound, maybe good sound YES but with all the issues working against you , like bad acoustics, bad electricity, really noisy and for many companies gear that is borrowed to put on the display that may not even be broken in.
There are also other factors. Not every manufacturer has the right people either at the show or in house to get it sounding amazing.
I believe there are ways and they can help everyone but unless I can find a sponser with some capital I can't do it. The Industry won't do it simply because they refuse to cooperate. Way to much ego

 

[fas42]

Who determines if they "got" there?? How do you know for sure only very few people have "got" there. Becasue maybe you have not others have not either??

By the language that they use to describe the audio experience their systems create. There are at least four or five people on this forum who understand how good audio can be, and when they listen to a "normal" system it's trivially obvious to them that these systems are not hitting the mark. At one stage I thought I couldn't be the only person in my part of the world who knew where one needed to aim with improving audio reproduction, so did the rounds in an audio club for a couple of years. Nope, not one person there, irrespective of the cost of their gear, had it under control: yes, the right recording could sound mighty good on their setups but put on a different or slightly difficult CD and the sound was, well, not quite right ...

I sympathise with Elliot: several times when I experienced truly appalling sound from mega expensive gear in a hifi showroom I mentioned to the shop guy that it might be worthwhile setting up a special demo room, to do exactly what Elliot is aiming for, to "educate" people as to what's posible, but like it is for him it was shrugged off. The reasons? Take your pick ... basically, they didn't want to bothered, it's all about shifting gear; hey, we're running a business here!!

Frank

 

[Steve Williams]

Frank

I'm just curious how the entire audio club got it wrong and you were the only one who could figure it out. Yet in spite of this you have spent the past 25 years to get to a system of yours that can meet your very stringent criteria without success. Do you think perhaps you are preaching to the choir

 

[Ron Party]

By the language that they use to describe the audio experience their systems create. There are at least four or five people on this forum who understand how good audio can be, and when they listen to a "normal" system it's trivially obvious to them that these systems are not hitting the mark.

Or maybe you and these other 4 or 5 people have a lower threshold of satisfaction. Or maybe you and these others are more easily fooled. Or maybe you and these others are looking for something else from an audio system that others are not. Or maybe if they heard a system that you perceived to hit the mark they'd look at you funny and suspect you don't have both oars in the water. Or maybe ...

At one stage I thought I couldn't be the only person in my part of the world who knew where one needed to aim with improving audio reproduction, so did the rounds in an audio club for a couple of years. Nope, not one person there, irrespective of the cost of their gear, had it under control: yes, the right recording could sound mighty good on their setups but put on a different or slightly difficult CD and the sound was, well, not quite right ...

Does the mirror break when you look at it? Don't you see the complete and utter lack of humility? Isn't it possible that you're the one who just doesn't get it, not virtually everyone else?

 

[fas42]

Frank

I'm just curious how the entire audio club got it wrong and you were the only one who could figure it out. Yet in spite of this you have spent the past 25 years to get to a system of yours that can meet your very stringent criteria without success. Do you think perhaps you are preaching to the choir

It's not that they got it "wrong"; it's just that merely assembling a set of components, no matter how expensive, will normally not achieve that higher level of performance. And if they never experience what's possible, or only in passing, a typical experience of many here; they hold the memory of listening to some system, at a point in time, where it created fabulous music, and they try and recreate that experience. Unsuccessfully, by most accounts ...

Why I "figured it out" is because I'm a persistent bastard; I knew something was there, and I just had to find out what was going on. And it's taken that 25 years because it's not easy, far from it: back then the equipment wasn't as intrinsically good as a lot of it is these days, which made things harder. Robert, the old one, I note there is a new Robert as well, has got there because he has assembled a very high quality mix of components, and has spent a great deal of effort finessing the last steps.

I haven't got Robert's financial resources, so am doing it the "hard" way: I am much, much further along the curve of being "successful" then I was even a year ago. If I applied what I know now to modern, high quality components then the results should be pretty spectacular ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

Does the mirror break when you look at it? Don't you see the complete and utter lack of humility? Isn't it possible that you're the one who just doesn't get it, not virtually everyone else?

The point of what I'm trying to do is to convince people that there definitely is a higher order of performance available; after all, this is What's Best; how people choose to pursue it then is up to them. But first of all you need to believe it exists ...

Frank

 

[Steve Williams]

Frank

why do you feel that "you"need to convince people that there is a higher order. Sort of like "you" and the audio club. As far as I am concerned Frank I again suggest that you're preaching to the choir.

People aren't stupid here.

 

[fas42]

Because there is thread after thread, post after post, stating that "of course hifi can never sound like the real thing, that two channel stereo is intrinsically flawed, that one can't listen with pleasure to recordings of less than a certain quality, that only by purchasing and exquisitely precisely positioning the most expensive equipment in a perfectly manipulated room environment can one achieve sound of a high quality".

That's why ...

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

Many live music concerts sound awful.

Some great Classical concerts in some of the best concert halls of the world and performed by some of the best musicians from the best orchestras in the world sound phenomenal; Absolutely sublime!

* And the same is similarly true at home, from a 'musical reproduction' experience, in the best acoustically optimized rooms, and from some of the best loudspeaker systems, and with some of the best electronics out there, including the cabling, the sources and the music quality recordings themselves (well microphoned & naturally balanced in a realistically ambient room).
...And regardless of price (money).
And that, is Absolute as well.

Here! I said it now! :b

 

[NorthStar]

^ Is the post just above good enough for an encore?

So Yes, there is an absolute sound! :b

 

[Elliot G.]

I do believe there is a lot of ego involved. The Industry is extremely competitive and that of course breeds jealous behavior. Thsi fight for recognition and for press in an extremely under capitalized business is a major reason that there are few ideas from the group to do things together to further business and exposure.
To address another point , a dealer will have difficulty having a room just set up to show off the best he can do becasue he does have a business to run. In a store things are always in flux with things coming and going and changing things daily.
I think that again this example of what 's possible would be better suited to some-type of permanent or semi permanent display sponsored by the an organization, group etc. as a shinning example of where we are at.
Maybe we need a contest with prizes

 

[Alan Sircom]

I do believe there is a lot of ego involved. The Industry is extremely competitive and that of course breeds jealous behavior. Thsi fight for recognition and for press in an extremely under capitalized business is a major reason that there are few ideas from the group to do things together to further business and exposure.
To address another point , a dealer will have difficulty having a room just set up to show off the best he can do becasue he does have a business to run. In a store things are always in flux with things coming and going and changing things daily.
I think that again this example of what 's possible would be better suited to some-type of permanent or semi permanent display sponsored by the an organization, group etc. as a shinning example of where we are at.
Maybe we need a contest with prizes

Nice idea, but prone to being shot down in flames almost immediately. Here's why:

Let's say a panel of experts (both from within the industry and well-respected enthusiasts who have been around the block enough to know good from bad) pull together a system they believe represents this 'shining example' of yours. It is then installed as a perma-fixture in the Hall of Audio Greatness, and quite possibly replicated in several countries as a fixed benchmark (in the correct sense of the word). Let's even raise the game a bit more and have two identical rooms in the Hall of Audio Greatness, one with the system in a state of constant, unchanging readiness, the other allowing manufacturers to bring their own equipment to the benchmark system to compare and contrast. What happens then?

1. Those who were deemed not to be 'expert' enough will dismiss the findings of the panel of experts, citing the whole exercise as one big ego-massage
2. One or more of the above will inevitably begin to question the motives of the panelists, saying they would choose a different set of products "because they can't be bought"
3. Manufacturers unable or unwilling to supply products for assessment, and companies that create products rejected by the panel on the grounds of poor sound will start independent FUD campaigns, citing reasons why that company's products were 'too good' for the Hall of Audio Greatness system and/or how the panel doesn't understand music or appreciate musicality
4. A host of rivals would appear with their own interpretation of the Hall of Audio Greatness, usually with an attendant there to explain to people why that particular Hall was better than all the other Halls
5. No matter how good this 'what is possible' system was, there would always be someone who didn't like it. Even if they did like it, but were the paid stooge of rival companies, they would make sure they didn't like it somehow

It's what I call the 'Venetian Snippers' effect - CES exhibitors at the Venetian Towers find parts of the hotel room exhibits locked off with thick cable ties and signs to say something like, "If this cable is cut or tampered with, the exhibitors will be fined". The fines are in the hundreds to the thousands of dollars. You can almost guarantee that dozens of those cable ties gets snipped by unscrupulous rivals with a pair of pliers by the end of the first day of the show. Sometimes it's friendly competition. Sometimes it's war.

 

[Robh3606]

Because there is thread after thread, post after post, stating that "of course hifi can never sound like the real thing, that two channel stereo is intrinsically flawed, that one can't listen with pleasure to recordings of less than a certain quality, that only by purchasing and exquisitely precisely positioning the most expensive equipment in a perfectly manipulated room environment can one achieve sound of a high quality".

That's why ...

Frank

Hello Frank

Let's take your points one at a time

of course hifi can never sound like the real thing,

We all live, may be a bit strong, for those moments when you get so wrapped up in what you are listening too that you have a you are there or they are here moment. I am sure at some point it has happened to many people on this board. Just because you are lucky enough to have that happen is no reason to delude yourself to think that your system really does sound like the real thing. A momentary lapse of reason is one thing. Your belief can not change the laws of physics.

that two channel stereo is intrinsically flawed

That's a fact plain and simple. The more you understand the limitations the more you can do to try to work around them. If you accept it as a perfect medium and there is no need for improvement and it just becomes stagnant and possibly a missed oportunity.

that one can't listen with pleasure to recordings of less than a certain quality,

That all depends on the music that's recorded and not a given.

that only by purchasing and exquisitely precisely positioning the most expensive equipment in a perfectly manipulated room environment can one achieve sound of a high quality".

While having a good room is key, just throwing money at anything is not the answer. Also who decides what's "high quality". I don't think most people here would agree most money spent always equals best sound. I have heard some relatively inexpensive systems of used and vintage componets that sounded better than they should. To me that means the person doing the set-up knows what they are doing. You can't buy that.

I have my Ipod, my work system which uses my I pod for a source and 2 other systems at home . Obviously they are not all the same quality from a measurement and subjective point of view. That does not prevent me from getting quite a bit of enjoyment out of all of them. With that point of view they all deliver "high quality" sound within their limitations.

Rob

 

[Elliot G.]

Nice idea, but prone to being shot down in flames almost immediately. Here's why:

Let's say a panel of experts (both from within the industry and well-respected enthusiasts who have been around the block enough to know good from bad) pull together a system they believe represents this 'shining example' of yours. It is then installed as a perma-fixture in the Hall of Audio Greatness, and quite possibly replicated in several countries as a fixed benchmark (in the correct sense of the word). Let's even raise the game a bit more and have two identical rooms in the Hall of Audio Greatness, one with the system in a state of constant, unchanging readiness, the other allowing manufacturers to bring their own equipment to the benchmark system to compare and contrast. What happens then?

Allan, I never said this was possible and in fact in this industry full of ego and jealous behavior it is amazing that we can agree on anything.
Oh wait we can't!
If we can't define a goal then how do we ever start the trip?
If NASA said lets build a rocket and the scientists asked where is it going and who are you taking there,they would get an answer.
In audio we have no clue where we are going and why we are going there in the first place. I know this is really not exactly true it just seems that way.
I love music and am passionate about the way it can be reproduced in the listening environment. A quote form Jack Nicholson in ta movie applies here

" I never lied to you. I always told you some version of the truth>'
This is audio IMHO
]

 

[andromedaaudio]

There is so much of nice high end gear for sale , just make your pick and enjoy i would say , who cares if its absolute or not

 

[NorthStar]

The point of what I'm trying to do is to convince people that there definitely is a higher order of performance available; after all, this is What's Best; how people choose to pursue it then is up to them. But first of all you need to believe it exists ...

Frank

Frank, with all due respect, we are simple human mortals, and as such imperfect animals of nature.

We use money to elevate our power and all the best there is in everything! Including Audio.

But only few have access to life's excesses ... And those come from all venues and all means ...

Not a single person on our planet knows all the mysteries of our world, and not a single person can abduct, or convey, or convince, or dictate, or rule, or govern, or temper, or alter, or decipher, or transmit, or absolve, or absolute (verb), or define what is and what's not!
And even more so in Audio!

Frank, I luv you, and both you, I & them, we all know that what we know is only what we ourselves experimented in real life experiences. And we simply don't know all the other good & bad stuff out there; or because of geography, language, money, social positions, etc.

We can only speculate about the unknown ... And some of us know more than others ...
It don't truly matter, what does is the Love for the Music. And that, is Absolute! :b

...And the Music comes in all forms and from all places; sounds of nature, birds, wind, rain, fire, earthquakes, ocean tremors, running elephants, running antelopes, running jaguars, roaring panthers, crying babies, nails getting hit by hammers, sand from the Sahara flying into the air, violins in a concert hall, piano at home, Dad singing in the shower, Mom mumbling in the kitchen, ... you name it ...

 

[fas42]

If we can't define a goal then how do we ever start the trip?
If NASA said lets build a rocket and the scientists asked where is it going and who are you taking there,they would get an answer.
In audio we have no clue where we are going and why we are going there in the first place. I know this is really not exactly true it just seems that way.
I love music and am passionate about the way it can be reproduced in the listening environment. A quote form Jack Nicholson in ta movie applies here

" I never lied to you. I always told you some version of the truth>'
This is audio IMHO
]

The goal is to educate people in general on how good audio can be: the fact that it may not be the "best" according to the standards of one group of insiders is irrelevant; the aim is to attract more of the outsiders to our turf. And if the insiders lose sight of that then the industry certainly deserves to fall to the bottom of the hole it's digging for itself ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

Let's take your points one at a time

We all live, may be a bit strong, for those moments when you get so wrapped up in what you are listening too that you have a you are there or they are here moment. I am sure at some point it has happened to many people on this board. Just because you are lucky enough to have that happen is no reason to delude yourself to think that your system really does sound like the real thing. A momentary lapse of reason is one thing. Your belief can not change the laws of physics.

We always get back to this laws of physics bit! The way the world works is, that if something happens once that means that whatever happened is possible; the fact that it is never repeated is irrelevant. The thing happened, it was measured, witnessed to happen, it means that it does exist. Just because you can't repeat something over and over and over again by pushing a simple, big button somewhere, until everyone collapses from sheer exhaustion, is just a conceit, used by many to ridicule something that they don't understand, or are uncomfortable with. Or whose egos are threatened ...

My journey to good sound really started with an incident similar to the sort of thing that has happened for probably most people here: one day, for some reason I didn't understand, my system sounded brilliant, magic. Now, I, unlike others, then became deeply committed to trying to understand that, and to be able to replicate it at will. And I'm still on that journey. And a long way down it, as I verify now and again by going to for a listen at dealer showrooms, and experiencing other people's ambitious systems.

And I also verify that I haven't lost track of the real thing: whenever live, raw instruments are playing, no PA, the musicians literally a few feet away, I open my ears as wide as I can, I attempt to soak up every nuance of the sound being made. This serves as a good balancing reference.

The main limitation at the moment is that my mightily down market beast can only go so loud; many of the recordings are running at maximum volume because that's the biggest number I can set it to. And for others the amp would shut down because it would thermally overload. The main reason many systems don't do "real" well is because they can't go loud without distorting, or revealing other distortions too glaringly for one to feel comfortable with. People talk of pressurising the room with sound as a mark of a system doing well, that's something that's trivially easy for me; and it should be trivial for all other systems as well: that's part of the Absolute Sound, the quality of it feeling subjectively real.

Frank