IS there an absolute sound?

[Elliot G.]

I think that the HE audio Industry as a whole as wandered off the path and gotten lost in the woods.
How can we have an intelligent discourse about the sound of music reproduced in our homes without any rules and standards.
If the magazines and reviewers all have different criteria, different sources, different musical choices and for the most part don't even compare and listen to each others work what does this all mean?
I think we need to make some hard choices and to define what it is we are truly seeking.
I realize that there are many compromises and we will probably never get to the promised land but the way it is being done now just doesn't work.
I think that all of us need to develop some goals and map to attempt to get there.
For example
1) a definition of what the absolute sound is . This is singular not three choices like one popular site suggests. I still believe in the definition stated by HP many years ago.
2) tools- like a group of selections of music that will help us all converse on the same topic.
I am sure there are others but this is just my way of opening the discussion

Thoughts?
Comments?
Elliot Goldman

 

[Robert]

Yes. A system should transport you to the performance. A system should sound palpable, effortless, clean, dimensional, and not draw attention to itself. In a word, natural.

When your system gets out of the way, then you've got it.

 

[Steve Williams]

What would be your starting suggestions Elliot

 

[Elliot G.]

Agreed however without a common ground to compare and discuss this is just someone's opinion.
Your thoughts are valid but the criteria is vague. Its like when someone says its "musical" it really does not convey any true meaning.
If there was for example a series of a few specific recordings that we can all use that show for example the sound of an acoustic guitar in a 20 by 30 room, and a paino in the same, a male, and female vocalist etc then we can all discuss this with something in common.
I beleive we need to set forth the "rules" to have a seriosu discussion and then make some quality evaluations.

Along time ago I worked at Lyric in NYC and was and still is a good freind of HP. I learned alot form being invloved in those listening sessions. It seems that others have hijacked the conversation and have changed and poluted the waters of information

 

[Elliot G.]

First a definition of what we are trying to achieve.
HP was the sound of acoustic insttuments in an acoustic space
Secondly a series of musicall selections that would demonstate the things we are looking for.
These recordings need to be specific in nature so that we can all learn from them and use them to evaluate and quantify what we hear.
For example- a specific size room with the details of the instument and placement.

 

[Elliot G.]

Steve let me give you a smalll example/ I have always used when I am setting up a system the XLO test CD by Keith Johnson. I know what I am about to say is not music but I still use it.
There is a track with Keith walking in a specified room between 2 microphones. Thsi recording helps me set the speakers up such that I get proper image size, image height and dimensionality for the voice and his body.
It is a tool I use to begin with. If I had a series of these with specific instruments, perhaps a small jazz trio, etc we could all learn and be able to communicate our thoughts and findings clearly or at least more clearly that the vague way we do now.

 

[Steve Williams]

You are almost suggesting a Syllabus for Reviewers.

 

[Elliot G.]

Too be honest it is for everyone . The reviewers have there own agenda. An agenda that we are not privy too. In order to have an educated conversation we all need to be on the same topic NO?

 

[JackD201]

I still think it is a very personal thing this "Absolute Sound". What we all consider natural or realistic is still based on our personal set of experiences and how individually we've processed them. The other alternative would be to have as you say, a standard imposed. "Your system should sound like this". I would never board that train and I suspect I won't be the only one.

Being close to a fairly large local audio community and having shared experiences in each other's abodes, over time I guess you get an inkling of what tickles the fancy of the various individuals THEN there's a context wherein we can relate. On this particular forum I've been at Jadis', Mullard88's, Steve Williams', Jimmy's so I have some handle on their priorities. Outside of those you haven't listened with in person, I think you get the same but to a lesser degree when over time you've got these baskets filled with what you agree and don't agree with. It's the same with audio reviewers. There are those that I agree more with and others that make me say "WTF?". With the latter, well, there's always the entertainment value.

 

[Elliot G.]

I am not saying that the system should sound one way I am saying that if I gave you a tool. The tool ( recording) said there is a specific guitar with these strings , model # --- set in this room that was 20 by 30 with a 10 foot ceiling and the player was a man sitting 8 feet from the rear wall and in the middle of the room. We recorded him with -----.
We all then could hear this and see if our system produced this the way it was recorded. Thsi is a start otherwise all you have is a vague series of opinions about something that we can not compare. We are listening to opinions of people who are making statements about music they never heard live in recordings they were never present at nor had the details and making conclusions...

By the way I don't believe it is personal we all know what the sound of a voice is. You can recognize your wife or childs voice from anywhere . Its specific and not personal

 

[Robert]

Agreed however without a common ground to compare and discuss this is just someone's opinion.
Your thoughts are valid but the criteria is vague. Its like when someone says its "musical" it really does not convey any true meaning.
If there was for example a series of a few specific recordings that we can all use that show for example the sound of an acoustic guitar in a 20 by 30 room, and a paino in the same, a male, and female vocalist etc then we can all discuss this with something in common.
I beleive we need to set forth the "rules" to have a seriosu discussion and then make some quality evaluations.

Along time ago I worked at Lyric in NYC and was and still is a good freind of HP. I learned alot form being invloved in those listening sessions. It seems that others have hijacked the conversation and have changed and poluted the waters of information

No, I don't think we can agree upon a set of recordings. People already do that. What I am listening for is the expression and communication of the performers. That's open to too many interpretations, which is why music is so great.

 

[JackD201]

I am not saying that the system should sound one way I am saying that if I gave you a tool. The tool ( recording) said there is a specific guitar with these strings , model # --- set in this room that was 20 by 30 with a 10 foot ceiling and the player was a man sitting 8 feet from the rear wall and in the middle of the room. We recorded him with -----.
We all then could hear this and see if our system produced this the way it was recorded. Thsi is a start otherwise all you have is a vague series of opinions about something that we can not compare. We are listening to opinions of people who are making statements about music they never heard live in recordings they were never present at nor had the details and making conclusions...

By the way I don't believe it is personal we all know what the sound of a voice is. You can recognize your wife or childs voice from anywhere . Its specific and not personal

Yes Elliot, what I mean is while my wife and I might recognize our children's voices, how sure could I be if I could if we magically swapped bodies? I've never heard 99.9999% of the singers I listen to live but I can tell Ol' Blue Eyes from even the best Vegas impersonator. Why? It's because I've listened to his voice from childhood. Someone whose never heard the two at all might tell them apart but he wouldn't know who was who. I'm not disagreeing that there is a human baseline but that baseline is still predicated on common experiences of individuals. There's an education component, like my mom sitting me on her lap and playing Peter and the Wolf.Someone else might have learned his basic instrument sounds some other way but we could still agree most of the time that that was a flute and not an oboe. Even if we did though, how is that really helpful within the context of finding a standard. Even if it is live sound and I was in the same concert as say fellow member egidius, I'd be in a seat and he'd be on stage performing. I'm pretty sure our choice of presentations from a system would differ somewhat.

Personally, I just don't sweat it. There's no way to get us all on the same page. While I heartfuly agree that the existing lexicon is wanting, language and vocabulary is evolutionary. If anything, blame the guys who tried to build the Tower of Babel I guess we just have to all keep on yackity-yacking until we do come to common understandings.

 

[Robh3606]

The tool ( recording) said there is a specific guitar with these strings , model # --- set in this room that was 20 by 30 with a 10 foot ceiling and the player was a man sitting 8 feet from the rear wall and in the middle of the room. We recorded him with -----.
We all then could hear this and see if our system produced this the way it was recorded. Thsi is a start otherwise all you have is a vague series of opinions about something that we can not compare.

Hello Elliot

I think trying to get a common language using specific recordings might be benificial. That said with us all in different rooms and using different systems we are clearly not going to be hearing the same things.

Not to be a PITA but I have a couple of questions for you.

How are you going to know if it's "right"?? Do you mean it sounds "right to me"? Isn't that what you are trying to avoid??

On a less abstract point I have two completely seperate systems in the same room. On is my HT the other a seperate dedicated 2 channel rig. Because of room placement issues and speaker differences they each have different spacial presentation when playing 2 channel music. They both sound very good but different. How do I know which is right/true to the recording??

Rob

 

[Elliot G.]

Saying we cant agree on a series of recordings is just silly. Of course we can agree on anything. If there are no rules then all you have is the chaos that exists today. You are certainly entitled to your choices and opinions and you can live with them whether anyone agrees with you however this IS NOT the way to move forward and do it better.
What your saying is I like what I like and I don't care. So be it if that is what you want.
The choice to have significant input and significant discussion on how to do it correctly is important.
A guitar as I described it DOES NOT sound a thousand different ways sorry. I have made recordings and been in many studio's while they do the process . What you are saying is that you want no knowledge on how to do it better and that you are satisfied with searching for mysteries without any clues.
Jack,
If you had a tool that helped you analyze your gear and make it as close to the recording as possible this would not be of value to you? If you went to choose new gear when the time comes and it would help you evaluate which product is truly more faithful to reality this is not important?
We need to have more common experiences to be able to comunicate and act and talk with intelligence based on something other than an opinion

 

[Elliot G.]

If you had a tool to help it would show you which one is more faithful to the original source.
If I gave you a recording and it had the dims of the room, the specifics of the instrument and gear and a picture of how it was done. Thsi would be a good starting point for your system at home to try to produce it as it was it was recorded NO?
It is not perfect I agree there are many factos but one must start somewhere.
I have been a dealer for almost 40 years. I worked in NYC and here in Florida. I have been in many homes to listen to systems by reviwers, customers. the industry and friends .
Ihave to say that the vast majority are just plain AWFUL.
Many of these people NEVER listen to live music and their opinions are solely based on the "i like it so it must be real" school.
This seems to be an industry without guidelines and standards. If we don't try and demand better you wont ever get them

 

[garylkoh]

Hi Elliot, I'm with JackD on this one. Even if you had that series of recordings, how would I know what the recording should sound like? Different microphones, sound different, and different recording techniques sound different. I would dare say that the only way that a set of recordings should be a reference (and I would hesitate to say that it is an absolute reference) would be if the recordings were done with binaural techniques and listened to with a pair of headphones.

When I design, I have a set of recordings I have used for the past 10 years. The first is a solo unaccompanied female vocal - of a lady I know, have met, have heard her in the studio that she was recorded in, and have listened to the monitors in the control room. They all make her sound different, but at least I know what she sounds like.

There is also a series of recordings of a small jazz trio that I use, but the final CD was so far from the original that I cannot use them except for specifically the sound of the male voice and the piano. The drum kit sounds nothing like how I remember standing in the studio listening to the drummer. The drums sound far, far better, because of good close miking techniques, excellent mics, etc.

On this forum, I once posted a piano scale diagnostic - every key of a Fazzioli grand piano played. That gives me a handle on how coherent the crossover, drivers are. If one note sounds much different from another note, or if a series of notes change tonality, then I know that I still have work to do. However, I cannot identify from the recording if the piano is a Fazzioli or a Steinway or a Bosendorfer. It just sounds like a piano.

Other recordings are solo violin, solo guitar, solo trumpet, etc.

Unfortunately, many audiophiles don't know the sound of an unamplifier instrument. A trumpet can be painful, and so can violins. They are used to softened, pleasant recordings. Since most recordings are done with close mics, but we listen to real instruments from a distance, the sound is very different. When the instrument is recorded with a distant mic, depending on the mic, it can sound nothing like what we are hearing at the same distance.

 

[Elliot G.]

Gary ,
I have a series of recordings I use as well. If we don't use the same things then the discussion is meaningless. There has to be something in common. When I was younger I used a bunch of recordings ( records) that HP used, we used the same ones at Lyric, Arnie N. used them , Jon Dahlquist used them etc. etc. They were not perfect but we all had something in common. YOu won a speaker company and I am sure you listen to live music ( icertainly hope so) however we have lost the reality of what we do. As a dealer to have people come to you and describe some vague thing or throw back at you some statement that a reviewer said without specif insight as to what they were listeing to to me makes no sense.
If I tell you your speakers have arise at 2k, becasue I read it in a magazine, what does that mean. If I sit and listen with you to the same piece of music and we compare that piece on your speakers and mine we have some commonality/ I do realize there are tons of variables but without any constants this is just nuts.
My friends and business partners try to talk and use the smae things when we talk. HP has been using the same recordings for ever.
Gary if I give you all the details and the dimensions and the pics, wires etc. I know you can deal with it and I know you can understand what it sounds like. Is it perfect again no is it better than nothing?

 

[Peter Breuninger]

Too be honest it is for everyone . The reviewers have there own agenda. An agenda that we are not privy too. In order to have an educated conversation we all need to be on the same topic NO?

My agenda is to describe the experience (sonic, emotional, visual and touch) of the equipment. I subscribe to the three listener approach (see my Coincident Pure Reference Extreme in TAS Oct 2010).

 

[Elliot G.]

Peter,
I am sure you do that to the best of your ability and with all the experience you have acquired. I do believe that without some common ground that the results are less meaningful. It is impossible for me to quantify such a wide diversity of items getting great reviews when most of them sound nothing alike. I personally don't buy the three approach Sir, sorry.
Have you heard JV system? RH? HP? all of them have Reference systems and yet all of these systems are very different no? I am not trying to offend you nor anyone lese but it seems that we have traveled a path that has less and less meaning.
Your product choices are somewhat determined by what you can and can not get to listen too isnt that correct? It is hard for a reader like myself to understand how to interpret the reviews when there is nothing in common between them.

 

[Robert]

Disagreeing is not silly, just realistic. You cannot analyze the parts and know what the whole will be. That's what people do now.

Right now, I'm listening to Schumann's Symphonies by Barenboim. Please, go and buy this. I don't think it is in print, but it can easily be found used. This recording is remarkable for its own set of attributes. The brass of the Staatskapelle Berlin is unlike any other. They play with a warm, burnished, romantic, and clear sound. The playing is big, bold, and energetic. This is heavy German music, yet Barenboim infuses it with momentum and a supporting structure that makes it light as a feather as it flows from one passage to the next. The strings are lush and big. The music simply breathes. Whereas many conductors struggle with Schumann's cryptic transitions, Barenboim revels in them. The only thing better than the climaxes are the quiet parts. The sense of tension during the slow passages, along with a richness and sense of space. And the sound of the pauses are great as well - I can hear the air moving through the hall as the musicians wait on the edge of their seat for the conductor to engage them to continue. Now, I ask, how are we supposed to agree upon how the sound of no sound should sound? And, this is just one of hundreds of recordings, each of which brings its own joys for its own particular set of reasons.

When I sit in front of a performance, I don't ask myself whether the trumpet sounds right. I ask myself what is the composer and musicians trying to say. That's the absolute sound.