Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[microstrip]

Thanks. The link offers a brief bio of Alan Blumlein though not much about his views on 3D imaging.

I found a 1981 Stereophile article that talks about Blumlein's discoveries and the topic of sound source location, then gets into microphone placement.



The article talks about defining a lateral soundstage and image depth. Best as I can read it makes no mention of three-dimensional images.

The Stereo Image

The author demonstrating stereo microphone techniques at an English audio show in 1981.

www.stereophile.com

It is a common subject in acoustic and AES papers. Unfortunately the papers are subject to copyright and unless we have a subscription individual articles are expensive.

The subject was also debated in ASR sometime ago. See https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...differentiation-of-instrumental-images.41098/

 

[Atmasphere]

Thanks. The link offers a brief bio of Alan Blumlein though not much about his views on 3D imaging.

I found a 1981 Stereophile article that talks about Blumlein's discoveries and the topic of sound source location, then gets into microphone placement.



The article talks about defining a lateral soundstage and image depth. Best as I can read it makes no mention of three-dimensional images.

The Stereo Image

The author demonstrating stereo microphone techniques at an English audio show in 1981.

www.stereophile.com

the genius of Alan Blumlein lay in his recognition that if the interaural phase differences are reproduced as amplitude differences between the signals fed to two loudspeakers, this alone is sufficient to define direction completely,

If you know the direction through stereo perception, then the depth is also defined. Our ears perform echo location, which is part of how we sense depth (phase relationships is part of it too).

One of the first commercial stereo recordings produced was actually surround sound (in specially equipped theaters), done by Disney for Fantasia. Its obvious, if you have the sound track, they understood that depth was a thing way back in 1940.

 

[tima]

If you know the direction through stereo perception, then the depth is also defined. Our ears perform echo location, which is part of how we sense depth (phase relationships is part of it too).

Right, as described in the article. To me, lateral location + depth is 2 dimensional . Left, right, center, front to back. With that + timbre I can tell the flutes are to the left of the clarinets, and in front of the French horns. Nothing is said about 3D images or pictures in your head.

 

[KPC]

Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?​

If we say “No” would we be endangered by our spouses? Self preservation is a high priority, don’t sleep well with one eye open

 

[Folsom]

If someone dumped a few billion in my lap tomorrow I'd buy some stuff I don't have. Some of those things would cost as much as a beginner house. At no point would I be asking if it "were worth it", I'd just be buying what I want to play with and use for R&D testing.

 

[DasguteOhr]

If someone dumped a few billion in my lap tomorrow I'd buy some stuff I don't have. Some of those things would cost as much as a beginner house. At no point would I be asking if it "were worth it", I'd just be buying what I want to play with and use for R&D testing.

I would buy audio classics, restore them, and open my own audio museum. Nothing with cheap buttons and touchscreen displays of today.
Exsamples

 

[morricab]

Right, as described in the article. To me, lateral location + depth is 2 dimensional . Left, right, center, front to back. With that + timbre I can tell the flutes are to the left of the clarinets, and in front of the French horns. Nothing is said about 3D images or pictures in your head.

What about height? With height you have a 3D space. Nothing was said about imaging probably because it’s understood implicitly. Unless you expect cardboard cutouts in a 3D stage,,.

 

[Amir]

Actually, you don't know whether to laugh or cry. None, absolutely none of you, comes up with a comprehensible description of the 3D imaging that you consider to be the determining factor for system quality.

It's claimed that this ominous but somehow not describable 3D imaging is immensely important for music reproduction, but none of you even begin to talk about music or how you perceive and understand music.

Of course, music consists of many individual tones. But if the focus were solely on that, then you would have a kling, klang, klong setup, regardless of the cable, the amp, and whether it's a set or a class AB amp. So, beyond that, there's the recording situation, the room its recorded in, the miking, the mastering, and, in the case of an LP, the pressing, but also the interpretation, the instruments, and even the era.

A protest song performed at the time it happened is guaranteed to have more fervor in the singer-songwriter's voice than if the situation criticized in the lyrics no longer exists today, and the content is therefore completely different.

What is the focus when you listen to music? Hopefully not on halls and bedrooms, cables, amps, speakers ...

A bass line played on an electric bass doesn't depend solely on the notes and tones, but on how it's played, how it fits into the musical flow, and also on whether it's just rhythm or even a separate or independent voice in the piece. So the focus is less on the instrument itself and more on the artist's playing style, how they handle the instrument, whether they pluck the string, how hard they pluck it, or whether they strike the string with their thumb or with their fretting hand.

And, of course, the tempo, tonality, and timbre, or rather, the body of the instrument, so that one can even recognize a different playing style or distinguish a Stradivari from a Guaneri, a Bösendorfer from a Yamaha. However, this also depends on one's listening experience and whether one is even familiar with the differences in tonality and timbre between e.g. different violins or grand pianos, and whether one has already heard other recordings of the piece with other musicians/orchestras and in other venues.

1- Some parameters like bass/mid/high or soundstage are easy to describe but some are not, for example describing “3D image” or “pace” or even “dynamics” is not easy.

2- music and sound are two different subjects. Yes I agree audio is just a tool for enjoying music but finally these are two different subject. I enjoy music even with my cheap car stereo (flat lifeless sound) and I believe high end is just a hobby not more.

if I say only high performance systems can produce “3D image” it does not mean “3D image” affect on my music enjoyment and it just means the playback is more advanced in sound reproduction.

Better sound comes from more advanced playback but music enjoyment is not directly related to the sound. The relation between sound and music is very very complex subject.

 

[Rexp]

Right, as described in the article. To me, lateral location + depth is 2 dimensional . Left, right, center, front to back. With that + timbre I can tell the flutes are to the left of the clarinets, and in front of the French horns. Nothing is said about 3D images or pictures in your head.

A high resolution system playing a good recording will reproduce the air/3D space of the venue populated by instruments/vocalists with body and substance (3D) presented in a believable fashion. Other than you hearing a system that can do this, not sure if I can help you any further.

 

[tima]

What about height? ... Nothing was said about imaging probably because it’s understood implicitly. Unless you expect cardboard cutouts in a 3D stage,

The article is titled: The Stereo Image. Its topic is explicit throughout the article. The discussion goes into some detail on microphone placement and the angle of coincident mics to achieve a stereo image.

Search found that the word "height" and the word "dimensional" do not occur in that article.

 

[tima]

A high resolution system playing a good recording will reproduce the air/3D space of the venue populated by instruments/vocalists with body and substance (3D) presented in a believable fashion. Other than you hearing a system that can do this, not sure if I can help you any further.

I believe I have a high resolution system and good recordings -- feel free to disagree. I don't know what you hope to achieve with your help, but thanks for trying.

I suggest you read the Stereophile article. It describes how information is captured on a recording to produce a stereo image on playback. That stereo image is characterized in terms of lateral information and depth information, which includes reverberation in the recording space.

What a listener does with, or how they respond to, the information on the recording is, imo, their product. I speculate that those with "normal" undamaged ear/brain physiology have no choice but to perceive left-right, near-far information -- that is to say we do it without thinking.

 

[Folsom]

I would buy audio classics, restore them, and open my own audio museum. Nothing with cheap buttons and touchscreen displays of today.
ExsamplesView attachment 153858
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I've already started collecting a few pieces. The ones with tube tuners are a real PITA though.

My point was more that I don't follow the "is it worth it" thought process so much. I just thinking choosing they best you can for your desires is all there is to it.

 

[morricab]

The article is titled: The Stereo Image. Its topic is explicit throughout the article. The discussion goes into some detail on microphone placement and the angle of coincident mics to achieve a stereo image.

Search found that the word "height" and the word "dimensional" do not occur in that article.

So? Soundstage is a VOLUME, not a flat plane with width and depth in 2 axes. It is by definition a volume space and therefore 3D by definition… unless you now tell me that the instruments and voices in that space are flat on the floor of your 2D space!

 

[Holmz]

Why do atmos speaker

So? Soundstage is a VOLUME, not a flat plane with width and depth in 2 axes. It is by definition a volume space and therefore 3D by definition… unless you now tell me that the instruments and voices in that space are flat on the floor of your 2D space!

Why do atmos speaker get attached, or placed, in a ceiling then?

Sort of seems difficult for two or three speakers to for anything but a ray, line, or plane

 

[Argonaut]

I believe I have a high resolution system -- feel free to disagree.

I disagree.

 

[Argonaut]

Why do atmos speaker

Why do atmos speaker get attached, or placed, in a ceiling then?

Sort of seems difficult for two or three speakers to for anything but a ray, line, or plane

The former being more of a surround sound system presentation tho , the latter being a sense of volume , air and space as captured on a recording and recreated as best as ones two / three transducer system may be able so to do .

 

[hopkins]

Here's a recording I just made of a random radio show playing on a small FM radio. I recorded it with Sonic Presence binaural microphones:

SP15C – Binaural USB Mic (USB-C)

Product Overview: The SonicPresence® SP15C (USB-C) is a new binaural microphone that records amazing Spatial Audio on Mobile and Desktop devices. The SP15C’s unique design places left and right microphones in front of each ear—instead of inside the ear—allowing you to capture sound exactly as...

www.sonicpresence.com

The radio moves in the horizontal plane - that can be heard clearly with headphones - then in the vertical plane and front and back - differences are subtle, with a single point source, perhaps the differences would be more significant with two sources, one fixed and the other moving around.

https://storage.googleapis.com/cloudplayer/samples/binaural%20recording.wav

This is a crude experiment.

 

[tima]

So? Soundstage is a VOLUME, not a flat plane with width and depth in 2 axes. It is by definition a volume space and therefore 3D by definition… unless you now tell me that the instruments and voices in that space are flat on the floor of your 2D space!

We were talking about instrument location and presence with @PeterA . Instrument location only needs lateral and depth information. You wanted to talk about having 3-D images of instruments in your head. I introduced an article about Blumlein and the Stereo Image and how that image is recorded. It mentioned nothing about 3-D images.

Now you switch to talk about soundstage. Is soundstage equivalent to imaging instruments?

What are you after here in this discussion, Brad?

 

[morricab]

We were talking about instrument location and presence with @PeterA . Instrument location only needs lateral and depth information. You wanted to talk about having 3-D images of instruments in your head. I introduced an article about Blumlein and the Stereo Image and how that image is recorded. It mentioned nothing about 3-D images.

Now you switch to talk about soundstage. Is soundstage equivalent to imaging instruments?

What are you after here in this discussion, Brad?

You still overlook the obvious…ALL OF IT is in your head. Where else would it be? Does your stereo magically manifest real musicians in your room?

Instrument location and presence, which both require a sense of space as a volume and not merely width and depth as you propose., is also just processing in your head…deciphering any of these pressure waves as something coherent is only because of the wet super computer between your ears.

There is no switch. You keep acting like image and soundstage are independent entities but it’s all tied together in how we process the incoming information.

If your brain processes stereo images as flat 2D constructs, well I guess I can’t help you with that. Most of the rest of us get what is meant by a 3D image in a soundstage that has volume or 3D itself, recording and system permitting.

 

[DasguteOhr]

What about height? With height you have a 3D space. Nothing was said about imaging probably because it’s understood implicitly. Unless you expect cardboard cutouts in a 3D stage,,.

Since speakers are usually very limited in the vertical plane, they usually collapse significantly by +-10 degrees. The distance between the speakers and ear height come into play. If you have the right height, the ear at the height between the tweeter and the midrange driver, then I completely agree that you can hear the size of a singer or instrument at this height.
"or is the earth a disc after all i don't know"