Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[hopkins]

In the article I referred ro previously, Bob Katz mentions some recordngs he worked on which provide a good sense of "depth and space":

Depth and Dimension - Digido.com

Digital Domain - we ensure musicians, independent artists and record labels get the best sound possible. Bob Katz provides the best in mastering and mixing.

www.digido.com

"Here are some examples of audiophile records I’ve recorded that purposely take advantage of depth and space, both foreground and background, on Chesky Records.

"Sara K. Hobo, Chesky. JD155. Check out the percussion on track 3, BrickHouse…"

Listen to the release Hobo by Sara K. on Qobuz https://open.qobuz.com/album/mwhggt39q5rbc

"Johnny Frigo, Debut of a Legend, Chesky JD119. Check out the sound of the drums and the sax on track 9, I Love Paris"

Listen to the release Debut of a Legend by Frigo Johnny on Qobuz https://open.qobuz.com/album/b9g6t4wm1qz4a

"Ana Caram, The Other Side of Jobim, Chesky JD73. Check out the percussion, cello and sax on Correnteza"

Listen to the release The Other Side Of Jobim by Ana Caram on Qobuz https://open.qobuz.com/album/kyxauwl59li5b

"Carlos Heredia, Gypsy Flamenco, Chesky WO126. Play it loud! And listen to track 1 for the sound of the background singers and handclaps"

Listen to the release Gypsy Flamenco by Carlos Heredia on Qobuz https://open.qobuz.com/album/c7e242anv7rrc

"Phil Woods, Astor and Elis, Chesky JD146, for the natural-sounding combination of intimacy and depth of the jazz ensemble."

Listen to the release Astor & Elis by Phil Woods on Qobuz https://open.qobuz.com/album/ptw0nyt4hpnic

---.

Some of the CDs he recommends on his site (see the link in the above article) are impressive. Check out this Laurie Anderson track, for example:

Listen to Bright Red by Laurie Anderson on Qobuz https://open.qobuz.com/track/14704425

"Bright Red - Laurie Anderson Mastered by Bob Ludwig. Engineered by Kevin Killen. Very clean and open with great dynamic range. Beautiful, clean, and clear digital sound. Very attractive."

Interestingly the AllMusic review included in Qobuz explains:



This is a perfect example of the difficulty of talking about "emotional impact", which is obviously such a personal appreciation. I really enjoy that song...

Check out this Dave Grusin album:

"The Gershwin Connection - Dave Grusin Mastered by Wally Traugott. Engineered by Ed Rak. This is a modern Jazz album with a Rock flavor, and recorded with some of the top names in Jazz. Fabulous impact, clean, warm, extremely pure sound, dynamic range, and stereo image. Try Fascinating Rhythm. May be from analog tape, if so it is truly excellent. Moderately compressed but still retains its transients."

Listen to Fascinating Rhythm by Dave Grusin on Qobuz https://open.qobuz.com/track/54293695


This album he mentions is very nice:

Listen to the release Meant To Be by Ramsey Lewis on Qobuz https://open.qobuz.com/album/0724385077456

 

[PYP]

If your system puts such records at a distance and closer to a “you are there “ perspective this can also be wrong.
I am thinking of a specific trick B&W and some other mfgs. Did with a dip in the presence region of a speaker’s frequency response, the so-called gundry dip, that pushed images further back in the soundstage.
I guess my point is that a system should be both “you are there” and “they are here” depending on the recording. It shouldn’t bias either way.

B&W definitely plays with the presence region, but the overall balance is a revealing and natural midrange if the gear has very low distortion (that is key). As you mention, I hear both there/here perspectives depending upon the recording. If it is a live recording, and one hears the audience (for example), it does transport me to the venue. I don't tend to make the distinction in my mind since my habit is to suspend the analytical brain when listening. Likewise, I tend not to visualize the instruments since I seem to enter an auditory stream (not sure how to explain it).

Regarding a 3D presentation, streaming very well-recorded 44/16 is not flat, but nearly every modern recording with 24 bits has much better depth. Regarding older recordings (I'm most familiar with Jazz), a good number that would seem to have been remastered in high resolution sound artificial to my ears. I can understand why folks who love albums from the golden age of Jazz, who are also discerning vinyl collectors, cannot abide some of the digital conversion of those works of art.

 

[PYP]

...I use vibraphone and marimba tracks because of the very obvious decay characteristics, and although other instruments present this way too, it's very obvious (to me) if things are working when I hear decay from vibes and marimbas.

Have you listened to Branford Marsalis's In My Solitude: Live at Grace Cathedral? He seems to be playing the space as much as the horn itself. Would love to hear this in high resolution...

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...a tremendous sense of that space, isn't it?

 

[PYP]

...a tremendous sense of that space, isn't it?

and the way that the space is explored differently by the type of horn he plays. I like what he does with a warhorse like Stardust...

 

[Rexp]

Have you listened to Branford Marsalis's In My Solitude: Live at Grace Cathedral? He seems to be playing the space as much as the horn itself. Would love to hear this in high resolution...

Perhaps you need to get the CD.

 

[Amir]

Describing 3D image is not easy but maybe my simple example can help.

Imagine there are halls and bedrooms in your home, halls are far from bedrooms. Now let your friend start speaking in hall and listen to his voice when you are in one of bedrooms. Now play your stereo in hall and just use one speaker (mono) and listen to music when you are in one of bedrooms.

When you listen to sound in bedroom there is no stereo soundstage and your feeling about 3d dimensional of sound in bedroom shows your playback performance for producing 3D image.

If your playback sound image is more close to your friends voice then it is more 3D.

 

[morricab]

Have you listened to Branford Marsalis's In My Solitude: Live at Grace Cathedral? He seems to be playing the space as much as the horn itself. Would love to hear this in high resolution...

Officium - ECM Records

“

ecmrecords.com

 

[Rexp]

Officium - ECM Records

“

ecmrecords.com

Do you have the CD, how does it compare to the streaming version? The sample of the first track on the website, certainly shows promise even though it's probably mp3.

 

[morricab]

Do you have the CD, how does it compare to the streaming version? The sample of the first track on the website, certainly shows promise even though it's probably mp3.

I have it on cd but I haven’t compared it to Qobuz.

 

[DasguteOhr]

...I use vibraphone and marimba tracks because of the very obvious decay characteristics, and although other instruments present this way too, it's very obvious (to me) if things are working when I hear decay from vibes and marimbas.

A good exsample what 3d image is.

Gorgeous recording too ,the sacd version amazing

Friedemann: The Concert (Super Audio CD)

Die SACD Friedemann: The Concert jetzt probehören und für 18,99 Euro kaufen. Mehr von Friedemann gibt es im Shop.

www.jpc.de

 

[andromedaaudio]

Guys what your talking about regarding space is nothing .

I recently had to move to another appartment as my soundstage got way to big

 

[bonzo75]

Guys what your talking about regarding space is nothing .

I recently had to move to another appartment as my soundstage got way to big

There are many definitions of soundstage, including ego

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Try Steve Reich: six marimbas

 

[andromedaaudio]

Of the ones i heard over the years

I think the AG trios G3 with Bass modules probably threw the biggest soundstage.

But to me micro detail / tonal balance / dynamics are way more important ( does it sound like the artist wanted his/her music to sound ).......... FMA .

I can easily live without the other artifacts.

 

[Don_Camillo]

Actually, you don't know whether to laugh or cry. None, absolutely none of you, comes up with a comprehensible description of the 3D imaging that you consider to be the determining factor for system quality.

It's claimed that this ominous but somehow not describable 3D imaging is immensely important for music reproduction, but none of you even begin to talk about music or how you perceive and understand music.

Of course, music consists of many individual tones. But if the focus were solely on that, then you would have a kling, klang, klong setup, regardless of the cable, the amp, and whether it's a set or a class AB amp. So, beyond that, there's the recording situation, the room its recorded in, the miking, the mastering, and, in the case of an LP, the pressing, but also the interpretation, the instruments, and even the era.

A protest song performed at the time it happened is guaranteed to have more fervor in the singer-songwriter's voice than if the situation criticized in the lyrics no longer exists today, and the content is therefore completely different.

What is the focus when you listen to music? Hopefully not on halls and bedrooms, cables, amps, speakers ...

A bass line played on an electric bass doesn't depend solely on the notes and tones, but on how it's played, how it fits into the musical flow, and also on whether it's just rhythm or even a separate or independent voice in the piece. So the focus is less on the instrument itself and more on the artist's playing style, how they handle the instrument, whether they pluck the string, how hard they pluck it, or whether they strike the string with their thumb or with their fretting hand.

And, of course, the tempo, tonality, and timbre, or rather, the body of the instrument, so that one can even recognize a different playing style or distinguish a Stradivari from a Guaneri, a Bösendorfer from a Yamaha. However, this also depends on one's listening experience and whether one is even familiar with the differences in tonality and timbre between e.g. different violins or grand pianos, and whether one has already heard other recordings of the piece with other musicians/orchestras and in other venues.

 

[hopkins]

Actually, you don't know whether to laugh or cry. None, absolutely none of you, comes up with a comprehensible description of the 3D imaging that you consider to be the determining factor for system quality.

If you understand soundstage, you understand depth. What more is there to say?

It's claimed that this ominous but somehow not describable 3D imaging is immensely important for music reproduction, but none of you even begin to talk about music or how you perceive and understand music.

Who made that claim? I personally appreciate the sense of "presence" that one can get from speakers (as opposed to headphones) and it seems to me that it necessarily has to do with "depth", but I may be wrong. If you don't value "presence", the just move on...

You want to talk about music and how we perceive and understand it? Go ahead...let's see what you have to say that is so remarkable... I'm curious.

Of course, music consists of many individual tones. But if the focus were solely on that, then you would have a kling, klang, klong setup, regardless of the cable, the amp, and whether it's a set or a class AB amp. So, beyond that, there's the recording situation, the room its recorded in, the miking, the mastering, and, in the case of an LP, the pressing, but also the interpretation, the instruments, and even the era.

A protest song performed at the time it happened is guaranteed to have more fervor in the singer-songwriter's voice than if the situation criticized in the lyrics no longer exists today, and the content is therefore completely different.

What is the focus when you listen to music? Hopefully not on halls and bedrooms, cables, amps, speakers ...

A bass line played on an electric bass doesn't depend solely on the notes and tones, but on how it's played, how it fits into the musical flow, and also on whether it's just rhythm or even a separate or independent voice in the piece. So the focus is less on the instrument itself and more on the artist's playing style, how they handle the instrument, whether they pluck the string, how hard they pluck it, or whether they strike the string with their thumb or with their fretting hand.

And, of course, the tempo, tonality, and timbre, or rather, the body of the instrument, so that one can even recognize a different playing style or distinguish a Stradivari from a Guaneri, a Bösendorfer from a Yamaha. However, this also depends on one's listening experience and whether one is even familiar with the differences in tonality and timbre between e.g. different violins or grand pianos, and whether one has already heard other recordings of the piece with other musicians/orchestras and in other venues.

Duh. Is that the best you can do? Thanks for stating the obvious and giving us a pointless lecture on music appreciation, but what does any of that have to do with the discussion?

Trying to get the best out of a speaker system does not mean you can't appreciate music in other contexts (headphones, radio, small bluetooth speaker, etc ..). These types of condescending comments are completely useless.

 

[Don_Camillo]

If you understand soundstage, you understand depth. What more is there to say?

That wasn't directed at you. We've both and some others been talking about soundstage for a while. However, there are some that even deny the connection - see e.g.

3D image is not about 3 dimension soundstage (w h d …) .

And the point was that the "advocates" of 3D imaging thesis cannot describe it in a way that is understandable and generally valid for everyone.

Who made that claim?

please see

Yes you need good amplification, the best imaging I got was with ATC 20T speakers and Boulder amplification. The downside is that some recordings are revealed to be not as good as you thought and become less enjoyable.

Duh. Is that the best you can do? Thanks for stating the obvious and giving us a pointless lecture ....

Why does it be so difficult for some of you to treat others with respect?

 

[mtemur]

But to me micro detail / tonal balance / dynamics are way more important ( does it sound like the artist wanted his/her music to sound ).......... FMA .

I can easily live without the other artifacts.

I agree.

 

[Al M.]

Why does it be so difficult for some of you to treat others with respect?

I was asking the same question when I read that strange reply.