Introducing My System

[cjfrbw]

Looks absolutely wonderful. When breaching the active crossover paradigm, things can be a mess until dialed in then it is hard to go back to passive crossovers which seem like Model T audio (maybe refined but when you want that last bit of tweak, not there). I have the four way with four swarm subs, but thankfully, I don't have the 'Princess and the Pea' sensitivity to bass that many audiophiles describe.

I think that ribbons do best with 6-12 db crossovers. The digital crossovers have capabilities that make it seem like you have to use the ultimate 'power', but I have gone back to lower db because ribbons make that possible and things seem to integrate better (in spite of alleged interference patterns. With room, things seem to re-integrate at listening position pretty well). I also prefer an analog crossover, also do-able with ribbons better than with the other types of speaker systems.

My 'dipole tweeter' is a Graz midrange ribbon rescued from defunct rebuilt Apogee Stage, enhanced with upward firing small ribbons.

You might experiment adding smaller ribbon tweeters that point upwards only to get some better 'high hat' effect. Gives cymbals some nicer sting without the dangers of beaming.

Also, having comparative adjustable between 20-80 Hz and 80 to midrange, adding that third crossover point, can help with that lower midrange integration and separating the bass. That would mean the bugaboo of subs, something to add to nervosa pondering.

Alternatively, I think that Ron at some point addressing this issue found a Manley tubed studio unit that allowed this tweak in this range i.e. smoothly adjust the ratio of bass to lower midrange without actually adding more speakers or crossover points (just run the unit in between the lowest crossover and the bass panel amp), but I don't think he ever implemented it. I can't remember what it was called.

Congratulations. I think you are building a 'Crown Jewel' system that ought to be a pilgrimage site for audiophiles.

 

[Thundersnow]

 

[hopkins]

What is the track being played? Thanks.

 

[mxk116]

What is the track being played? Thanks.

According to Shazam the track is;

 

[Thundersnow]

 

[hopkins]

Thanks - got it on Qobuz:

Open Qobuz

open.qobuz.com

 

[mxk116]

Rarely am I taken by the sound quality of a video online.

Listening on my AudioEngine computer speakers I did not anticipate the sound quality would be so lively. Growing up around accordion players, I can almost feel the air moving through the instrument. A remarkable recording that demonstrates (to my ears) your systems ability to reproduce the space around the instruments. Very nice.

 

[hopkins]

Rarely am I taken by the sound quality of a video online.

Listening on my AudioEngine computer speakers I did not anticipate the sound quality would be so lively. Growing up around accordion players, I can almost feel the air moving through the instrument. A remarkable recording that demonstrates (to my ears) your systems ability to reproduce the space around the instruments. Very nice.

Videos can sound good, until you listen to the original track… At the risk of sounding a little negative (but criticism can be constructive) it seems to me that a lot of clarity is lost between the various instruments - for example between the accordion and the guitar. I wonder whether this could be a side effect of DSP?

P..S. Headphones are better for evaluating system videos.

 

[mxk116]

Videos can sound good, until you listen to the original track… At the risk of sounding a little negative (but criticism can be constructive) it seems to me that a lot of clarity is lost between the various instruments - for example between the accordion and the guitar at the end of the video. I wonder whether this could be a side effect of DSP?

P..S. Headphones are better for evaluating system videos.

I did listen to the original track. It definitely sounded inferior on my desk top computer with AudioEngine speakers relative to what I hear in my room. However, that doesn’t diminish in the least what impressed me about the video posted by Thundersnow.

 

[Thundersnow]

Videos can sound good, until you listen to the original track… At the risk of sounding a little negative (but criticism can be constructive) it seems to me that a lot of clarity is lost between the various instruments - for example between the accordion and the guitar at the end of the video. I wonder whether this could be a side effect of DSP?

P..S. Headphones are better for evaluating system videos.

You’re not sounding negative, I do post videos for people to make up their own minds. However, from sitting at the room and listening I can assure you that’s not the case. Separation of instruments in fact is one of the bigger strengths. My 2c ofc.

 

[Thundersnow]

 

[marty]

View attachment 157513

As an accordian player in my younger days, I Iove Galliano!
I also love Swiss Radio Jazz. It's what plays virtually all day long in the music room but can be heard throughout the house. Their programming is superb and they play a ton of excellent EU musicians that I don't hear elsewhere.

 

[cjfrbw]

Have you tried the 300b on the midrange ribbon just for giggles?

There is an effect with SET called the Miller Effect which tends to make the high frequencies roll off and become non-linear if the amp input doesn't have some strong transconductance. The sonic influence of the 300b would also depend on the crossover point, of course.

I used 45 SET tube amps for the tweeters for a time to get some of that 45 upper range magic. I eventually just went back to solid state to get a more incisive effect.

Vid sounds great on my headphones.

 

[bonzo75]

I used 45 SET tube amps for the tweeters for a time to get some of that 45 upper range magic. I eventually just went back to solid state to get a more incisive effect.

Interesting because once Brad had used you as example to back up his assertion that sets can be used on ribbons.

That said Thundersnow video is good

 

[Thundersnow]

Have you tried the 300b on the midrange ribbon just for giggles?

There is an effect with SET called the Miller Effect which tends to make the high frequencies roll off and become non-linear if the amp input doesn't have some strong transconductance. The sonic influence of the 300b would also depend on the crossover point, of course.

I used 45 SET tube amps for the tweeters for a time to get some of that 45 upper range magic. I eventually just went back to solid state to get a more incisive effect.

Vid sounds great on my headphones.

I tried very high quality 300B mono blocks (on their 4 ohm tap) on the Midrange Tweeter, but, while the tone was sublime, they simply didn't have enough power to run the midrange driver; you could see the ribbon flutter at higher SPLs and very dynamic content and the stage had shrunk. But, the Mundorf AMT driver is 97db, 14ohms nominal impedance, and it covers 5,000hz and up, so my stereo 300B is handling it with no problems and the tone is spectacular on the highs.

 

[morricab]

Interesting because once Brad had used you as example to back up his assertion that sets can be used on ribbons.

That said Thundersnow video is good

Not with his 45 amp. He also has a 50 watt WAVAC that he was using.

 

[morricab]

I tried very high quality 300B mono blocks (on their 4 ohm tap) on the Midrange Tweeter, but, while the tone was sublime, they simply didn't have enough power to run the midrange driver; you could see the ribbon flutter at higher SPLs and very dynamic content and the stage had shrunk. But, the Mundorf AMT driver is 97db, 14ohms nominal impedance, and it covers 5,000hz and up, so my stereo 300B is handling it with no problems and the tone is spectacular on the highs.

One of those NAT Magmas you had (I think you had Magmas, right?) would probably work very well on a mid ribbon. I use a 2A3 amp on my DIY high frequencies...but they are 110dB compression drivers, so needless to say I am operating most of the time in the low mW range! You are probably rarely breaking 1 watt with the 300B amp given how little content is actually going to the tweeter. What is the crossover frequency?

 

[Thundersnow]

5,200hz LR 24db/oct. So yeah, I think I'm in the mW range as well on the AMT. Yes, NAT remains as the only accessible option I can try and I hope to do so. But honestly, the fact that the MRT has a transformer between itself and the amp that essentially serves as an autoformer to have the amp see around 4ohms, while the actual impedance of the driver is way, way below and the fact that this is 4ohm nominal even with the transformer and it dips quite considerably below 4ohms, while Magmas could certainly handle it given the MRT frequency range (555hz-5,200hz LR24db/oct), it kind of defeats the purpose of having these "heaters" in the room just to try and get the MRT to behave.

In reality, a high damping factor and very confident at low ohms AB amp like Burmester 956MK2 (which btw has no caps in the signal path) is essentially a very, very good match. I get the special sauce magic from the 300B in the highs and that's good enough for me. It's always about striking the right balance between sound, ergonomics, and technical matching.

Should I try an active horn design *hint, hint* in the near future, things may look different for which amp I use on the mids in that experiment

 

[morricab]

5,200hz LR 24db/oct. So yeah, I think I'm in the mW range as well on the AMT. Yes, NAT remains as the only accessible option I can try and I hope to do so. But honestly, the fact that the MRT has a transformer between itself and the amp that essentially serves as an autoformer to have the amp see around 4ohms, while the actual impedance of the driver is way, way below and the fact that this is 4ohm nominal even with the transformer and it dips quite considerably below 4ohms, while Magmas could certainly handle it given the MRT frequency range (555hz-5,200hz LR24db/oct), it kind of defeats the purpose of having these "heaters" in the room just to try and get the MRT to behave.

In reality, a high damping factor and very confident at low ohms AB amp like Burmester 956MK2 (which btw has no caps in the signal path) is essentially a very, very good match. I get the special sauce magic from the 300B in the highs and that's good enough for me. It's always about striking the right balance between sound, ergonomics, and technical matching.

Should I try an active horn design *hint, hint* in the near future, things may look different for which amp I use on the mids in that experiment

I had forgotten that this is using pure foil ribbons. I was thinking this was the foil/kapton ribbons, where you have a true 4-5 ohms from the ribbon itself. Not sure how that behavior is with the transformers. I would have thought it behaved the same but I have never played around with a <1 ohm speaker coupled to a transformer to see if it behaves the same or differently from a true resistive load. That said, the midrange is where the magic is...at least from my perspective. Your videos sounds good, although perhaps a bit crispy for my taste, so I am not sure how I would deal with it in long term listening.

 

[morricab]

5,200hz LR 24db/oct. So yeah, I think I'm in the mW range as well on the AMT. Yes, NAT remains as the only accessible option I can try and I hope to do so. But honestly, the fact that the MRT has a transformer between itself and the amp that essentially serves as an autoformer to have the amp see around 4ohms, while the actual impedance of the driver is way, way below and the fact that this is 4ohm nominal even with the transformer and it dips quite considerably below 4ohms, while Magmas could certainly handle it given the MRT frequency range (555hz-5,200hz LR24db/oct), it kind of defeats the purpose of having these "heaters" in the room just to try and get the MRT to behave.

In reality, a high damping factor and very confident at low ohms AB amp like Burmester 956MK2 (which btw has no caps in the signal path) is essentially a very, very good match. I get the special sauce magic from the 300B in the highs and that's good enough for me. It's always about striking the right balance between sound, ergonomics, and technical matching.

Should I try an active horn design *hint, hint* in the near future, things may look different for which amp I use on the mids in that experiment

Looking forward to your future explorations with your "hint hint" speaker!

What kind of drivers are you looking at?