In praise of idlers

Don_Camillo

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Phono stage is an ARC Ref Phono 3SE. Arms are all 12” SME (V12, 312S) except on the Technics, where I use the 10” EPA 100. Cartridges vary, from a Koetsu Blue Onyx Platinum to a mono Miyajima Infinity Zero to the classic Shure vMR.

Don’t get me wrong. The Garrard is definitely a nostalgia trip. It sometimes takes a gentle push to get the platter moving (I use a VPI SDS synchro drive with the Garrard to reduce platter vibration by controlling input voltage). The Technics SP-10 in contrast comes to speed almost instantly. But it’s servo controlled. If you use one of the iPhone apps like RPM to check for speed stability, you notice a lot of sharp speed adjustments.
Thanks, but what´s about cartridge loading?

The Technics SP-10 MK 2 ist not servo controller but quartz controlled, what´s much more stable. iPhone apps are flimsy but if you recognize a lot of sharp speed adjustments there´s something wrong and the technics in the need of a proper service to get it back to specs. Same with the Garrard as long as the motor vibrates and needs to be pushed in order to start turning even with adjustage input voltage.

What plinth are you using with the Technics?
 

godofwealth

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The ARC Ref3SE allows changing loading through a remote control, so it’s quite easy to play with different settings. Agreed my Technics plinth is probably not up to par. I’m using the Technics obsidian plinth. Something much nicer would be an Artisan Fidelity plinth. The Garrard idler is a bit touchy. You need to set it at the right height. I don‘t mind giving it a little push. Kind of like the old wind up record players! All the three tables are very nice, so I’m exaggerating a bit, but the Garrard has that special tone to it. SMEs are paragons of neutrality, like their tonearms. That can come off as unexciting to some. I heard the 30/12 is significantly better than the 20/12.
 

Don_Camillo

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I’m using the Technics obsidian plinth. Something much nicer would be an Artisan Fidelity plinth.
To be honest I´ve done quite similar plinth constructions as Artisan does but didn´t get signal-to-noise ratio bettered with that. Rather the opposite happened and sound becomes a bit euphonic. That´s the reason whay I went back to original SH-10B3 obsidian plinth. But in order to get best specs the rubber stuff and feets needs to be in order.

Alternatively a Resinamic Sound plinth will be a good choise too. I´ve got one with my SONY TTS-8000 and got really impressed.
The Garrard idler is a bit touchy. You need to set it at the right height. I don‘t mind giving it a little push. Kind of like the old wind up record players!
In most cases and I´ve done some Garrards over the years it´s not the positioning of the idler but the motor. First you need to investigate the lower motor bearing, which likes to run dry, the bushings and then the motor must also be assembled and adjusted correctly, which is achieved by correctly aligning the lower and upper motor halves with the motor shaft. However, the lower motor bearing usually has to be completely dismantled and overhauled. It also needs new oil from time to time.

Secondly the two capacitors are usually gone and want to be replaced. The noise floor also benefits from replacing the suspension springs.

When it comes to Garrard plinth construction I´d rather go completely different ways today and either have something built out of slate or copy some features of the Shindo plinth but build it up as a sandwich construction with different materials and layers (panzer wood, hard wood, stainless steel, acryl, aluminium, rubber, felt, brass for the tonearm stand)

But all you like is allowed. However, it´s not a debate about what is supposedly better or worse, nor about "real" facts, but rather a report on subjectivities and individual tastes.
 
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Argonaut

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To be honest I´ve done quite similar plinth constructions as Artisan does but didn´t get signal-to-noise ratio bettered with that. Rather the opposite happened and sound becomes a bit euphonic. That´s the reason whay I went back to original SH-10B3 obsidian plinth. But in order to get best specs the rubber stuff and feets needs to be in order.
I agree , the SH-10B3 is relatively neutral as a base if in good condition and appropriately positioned on a quality rack or dense furniture.
Yes gains can be made by utilising specialist footers such as Centre Stage or spring isolation like Townshend pods however that can be said of many turntables mounted in their factory designed plinths.
 
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mtemur

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The Garrard idler drive is a masterpiece of design. Turn over a 301 and look at the design and the motor size. Now look at the SME 20/12 motor in comparison. It’s a joke — a wimpy little thing compared to the Garrard. Belt drives, no matter how much they cost, and some can cost over 100 grand these days, are all subject to the intrinsic problems of controlling s heavy platter with this squishy belt, and they use servos to compensate for the bad design (not to mention his slow they are to reach speed stability).
On the contrary the best way to achieve best performance from a belt drive turntable is to use a heavy platter and a relatively small motor. I don’t say that SME 20/12 is better than Garrad 301 or not. What I’m trying to say is they intentionally use small motors with belt drives. With the help of moment of inertia of the heavy platter, low torque/small motor’s internal vibrations and speed fluctuations are eliminated which yields to a smoother drive.
 
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gleeds

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Thanks for the advice. I am vaguely aware of this one. Atm, an unused lp is doing quite nicely as lp mat.

I think the Tentuo mat might be too thick and heavy for my specific application, but I'll consider it.
I'm not one to post "you might consider" ideas regularly. That said, if one is looking for a rim drive table beyond reproach, you may want to reach out to Christopher Thornton of Artisan Fidelity. IMHO, his bespoke rim drive tables compete with the world's best regardless of drive type and won't set you back as dollarwise as they will. Additionally, AF tables do not give up the bold and engaging sound idler drives are known for but do bring a level of precision to the proceedings not previously achieved.

 

gleeds

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Another idler that is worth looking at for those searching for an affordable, newly designed, and manufactured table. I have not heard it and believe the price is in the $8-9k for the table sans arm.


Distributed in the US by Prana Distribution.
 

gleeds

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May 29, 2018
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Another idler that is worth looking at for those searching for an affordable, newly designed, and manufactured table. I have not heard it and believe the price is in the $8-9k for the table sans arm.


Distributed in the US by Prana Distribution.
Sorry all. The Semper Sonus is a rim drive, not an idler.
 

DasguteOhr

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Audiosilente turntable never heard, only buying spare parts for my td 124 really good quality.




 
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Don_Camillo

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... the best way to achieve best performance from a belt drive turntable is to use a heavy platter and a relatively small motor.
Sorry, but this is the worst one can do when performance really counts.

In order to achieve stable rotation with minimum wow and flutter you need a heavy motor in order to eliminate any speed derivation caused in milliseconds. Otherwise you´ll get longer sustained piano tones from the lower midrange with a very unnatural kind of a vibrato.

You can check this easily on any turntable using a small motor combined with a heavy platter but won´t recognize this crappy behaviour on any idler or direct drive that´s working in factory specs.

P.S.: On other hand those crappy drive concepts cover any unnatural spatiality issues of modern audiophile reissues. ;)
 
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Don_Camillo

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Audiosilente turntable never heard, only buying spare parts for my td 124 really good quality.



Simone Lucchetti started with modified Rek o Kut LP-34 and Rondine T-12H some years ago. Today I think he is manufacturing all parts inhouse. And yes those are very tempting performers.

P.S.: I love my Rek o Kut LP-734 that I´ve set up for best performance mono playback and paired it with Livingston Banana and Fairchild A-225 or optional with Audak KT-16 and GE RPX or with a period correct Gray Research 108 copy - the Herald RP-155 Tonearm - that I bought recently and that´s capable of giving me more flexibility in cartidge choises because it can also be wired for stereo playback with Shure M3D for instance.
 
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mtemur

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Sorry, but this is the worst one can do when performance really counts.

In order to achieve stable rotation with minimum wow and flutter you need a heavy motor in order to eliminate any speed derivation caused in milliseconds. Otherwise you´ll get longer sustained piano tones from the lower midrange with a very unnatural kind of a vibrato.

You can check this easily on any turntable using a small motor combined with a heavy platter but won´t recognize this crappy behaviour on any idler or direct drive that´s working in factory specs.

P.S.: On other hand those crappy drive concepts cover any unnatural spatiality issues of modern audiophile reissues. ;)
that’s totally wrong. big motor with a high tork combined with a relatively light platter not only worsen wow&flatter performance but also increase transfer of motor vibrations to needle more. direct drive is whole another story. when you get more experience with high end tables you’ll know
 
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Mike Lavigne

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I'm not one to post "you might consider" ideas regularly. That said, if one is looking for a rim drive table beyond reproach, you may want to reach out to Christopher Thornton of Artisan Fidelity. IMHO, his bespoke rim drive tables compete with the world's best regardless of drive type and won't set you back as dollarwise as they will. Additionally, AF tables do not give up the bold and engaging sound idler drives are known for but do bring a level of precision to the proceedings not previously achieved.

i think you would find the Saskia model two idler has a precision and refinement at the tip top of idlers. weighs 220 pounds, Pabst motor, super low noise floor. in some ways more belt drive sound than idler. not as extremely bold as some idlers. just the right amount of drive and grip. but exceptional tonal density and image focus. a five tool player.

my DaVa Ref cartridge seems to love the Saskia model two.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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So Mike, for those of us who missed it, how did you crack DaVa noise?
 

Don_Camillo

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that’s totally wrong. big motor with a high tork combined with a relatively light platter not only worsen wow&flatter performance but also increase transfer of motor vibrations to needle more. direct drive is whole another story. when you get more experience with high end tables you’ll know
You should go to school again. But please don´t talk about things you do not even understand at all.
 

Mike Lavigne

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So Mike, for those of us who missed it, how did you crack DaVa noise?
the answer won't be complete until i receive the EMIA MC Trio. the 'noise' issue seems to mostly been a question of proper gain. Dave Slagle started me with a 1:28 SUT which turned out to be too low, so i was operating under the threshold for noise free playing. then he sent me a 1:40 which got closer. finally we decided to go to 1:50 SUT which is what others are doing and what Darius recommends.

i was also able to reduce noise with grounding methods, but the SUT is the major factor. not yet been given an ETA for the MC Trio build. things are now sufficient that i can fully enjoy the DaVa (no apparent noise while playing music) except that switching from arm to arm is still a kludge since i must plug and unplug as well as power up and down.
 
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Fishfood

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Who made your plinth? I have a refurbished Garrard that has been sitting unused in my closet for three years. I’d love to get it up and running but as I’ve got a nice PTP Lenco with Schroder arm I haven’t been in a hurry nor do I want to buy a plinth costing multiple thousands. Yours looks nice.
Do you have a photo you can post of the Lenco with Schroder? I'm about to start on a similar project with the Schroder arm... although thinking of just buying a PTP Solid 9 instead.
 
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