How Should Speakers be Stabilised?

[fas42]

'Bout time I kicked off a new thread, and this follows a question I posed to Tim. What do people think, what are their experiences in respect to making their loudspeakers more stable, more connected to typically the floor. This of course means spikes, Blu-Tack, all sorts of stands, etc, etc. Do some people find they get best sound by just dropping it onto the carpet?

As a simple summary, my way started and still is with spikes under a lot of weight, with Blu-Tack at the interface between speaker carcase and what's under it.

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

Very good subject.

Me think that the key point here is Coupling appropriately with the floor structure.

Every room is different on how their floor is built.
Example: First floor, second floor, wood beams, wood 2x4s & 2x6s, concrete, insulation, carpets, wood, tiles, etc., etc., etc.

Spikes, rubbers, caps (metals, wood, brass, copper, gold, etc.), custom rigs, custom bases, hockey pucks, etc., etc., etc.

At the end, you have to balance things equilaterally in your own room based on what material and construction design your own floor is constituted of.
And the secret sauce is Logic mixed with Experimentation.
Or Science with Common Sense.
Or simply by Preference of Listening.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Bob, I think all of the above is fair enough, and then, based on what you conclude about your floor, your room, your listening preferences, you have to decide if you want to maximize or minimize the interaction between the resonance of your speakers and the resonance of the room. I listen in the near field, over a desktop, just as I would if I were sitting at a studio control desk. My monitors are elevated a couple of inches off of the desk's surface by a very inert platform - it's made of bricks, actually - and tilted back a few degrees on rubber wedges so only the lower back edge of the speaker cabinets touch the platform. Clearly, I chose "minimize." The only way my speakers could be any more isolated from the surface is if they were floating above it...an option I've considered. How did I get there? Research, logic and listening. What did I get? Tighter, more controlled bass and more clarity and precision in the upper midrange resulting in, among other things, better pinpoint imaging. Of course I was unable to A/B, so it could all be expectation bias.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Tim, are the bricks loosely packed together or form one large, inseparable mass? And have you tried Blu-Tack at all?

Frank

 

[JackD201]

I'm a fan of Blu-Tack for monitors on stands. I can't think of anything else that gives the stickiness/stability and the damping AND doesn't ruin the bottom of the enclosure. Even without the so called sound benefits it's a winner.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, are the bricks loosely packed together or form one large, inseparable mass? And have you tried Blu-Tack at all?

Frank

Just two under each speaker. They are snugged together and covered with black cloth, but quite separable. There is a rubber mat between the bricks and the desktop. And as I said, the monitors sit on rubber wedges that elevate all but a pencil thin line at the back edge off of the bricks. I'm going for isolation, not coupling. You really don't want to couple with a desk top, and you want to minimize reflections off of it as well.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Just two under each speaker. They are snugged together and covered with black cloth, but quite separable. There is a rubber mat between the bricks and the desktop. And as I said, the monitors sit on rubber wedges that elevate all but a pencil thin line at the back edge off of the bricks. I'm going for isolation, not coupling. You really don't want to couple with a desk top, and you want to minimize reflections off of it as well.

Tim

Well, I'm going to suggest an experiment. Get hold of 2 really heavy slab of thick material that are at least as large as the bottom of the speakers, I use the concrete slabs used as garden pavers in lawns. In other words the weight is all of one piece, and as heavy, dense as possible. Mount that on the desk using 4 gobs of Blu-Tack, precisely matching the corners of the speakers. Obviously you will have to take care to protect the desktop doing this, but the key thing is NOT to allow the slab to slide around, it has to be locked to the structure of the desk using the goo. Then, mount the speaker on the slab, again using 4 decent beads of Blu-Tack, right on the very corners, so the goo is in line with the vertical sides, and the top set of goo beads are precisely on top of the lower set of beads, with slab inbetween.

Once you happy with the position, get right over the top of the speaker and push down hard on the speaker with your body so that the Blu-Tack squeezes out sideways, the beads about halve in height. This is looking pretty ugly now, but remember, it's only an experiment. The key thing when finished, if you do it right, is that if you lightly push on the speaker it should feel like it's been glued to the desktop. If the speaker moves sideways when you do this then then you hadn't used enough Blu-Tack, or not pushed down hard enough.

Then see what it sounds like, especially in the ability to go loud cleanly. If you or anyone else try this, and report back, I'd appreciate that. Put it this way: if I didn't do this with the HT speakers I'm using they would sound like the joke a lot here think they are ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Well, I'm going to suggest an experiment. Get hold of 2 really heavy slab of thick material that are at least as large as the bottom of the speakers, I use the concrete slabs used as garden pavers in lawns. In other words the weight is all of one piece, and as heavy, dense as possible. Mount that on the desk using 4 gobs of Blu-Tack, precisely matching the corners of the speakers. Obviously you will have to take care to protect the desktop doing this, but the key thing is NOT to allow the slab to slide around, it has to be locked to the structure of the desk using the goo. Then, mount the speaker on the slab, again using 4 decent beads of Blu-Tack, right on the very corners, so the goo is in line with the vertical sides, and the top set of goo beads are precisely on top of the lower set of beads, with slab inbetween.

Once you happy with the position, get right over the top of the speaker and push down hard on the speaker with your body so that the Blu-Tack squeezes out sideways, the beads about halve in height. This is looking pretty ugly now, but remember, it's only an experiment. The key thing when finished, if you do it right, is that if you lightly push on the speaker it should feel like it's been glued to the desktop. If the speaker moves sideways when you do this then then you hadn't used enough Blu-Tack, or not pushed down hard enough.

Then see what it sounds like, especially in the ability to go loud cleanly. If you or anyone else try this, and report back, I'd appreciate that. Put it this way: if I didn't do this with the HT speakers I'm using they would sound like the joke a lot here think they are ...

Frank

Uh...no thanks.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Uh...no thanks.

Tim

Bit of a shame; using that technique made a huge difference for several passive speakers of mine about the same size as yours, over the years. For a start, wimpy bass turned into something with some real bite and guts ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

Just a thought, Tim: as a halfway house, skip the slab, the speakers may be heavy enough with the included power supplies. Just Blu-Tack under the speaker corners, place on desktop as close to the supporting legs as reasonable, press down hard, and try ...

Frank

You're not paying attention, Frank. I very deliberately de-coupled those monitors from the desktop. I didn't put them back, sitting directly on top of it. Why? Because they sound better this way. If I blue-tak them directly to the desk, with or without the slab, my monitors will be coupled to the desk even more than before. Given their weight, I doubt that would make an audible difference, but if it did, it wouldn't be a good one. You're right that I'd get more bass. I did. I just didn't get the kind of fast, clean, well-controlled bass I like. And I'll also get my first reflections, far too close behind the direct sound, off of the hardwood surface of that desktop. You suppose that'll make my tweeters disappear?

I don't doubt that technique made an audible difference with many a small monitor. And I don't doubt that you, and many other people liked it. What I know is that I don't.

Tim

 

[NorthStar]

Sound anchors...

Reverse post with reverse quote! (Last post from previous page.)
...Sounds like good de-coupling.

___________

* Me, I keep always experimenting with various techniques and materials.
From free air standing (the satellites only of course), to solidly bolted to the floor (subwoofers usually; the base stands, not the sub itself).

It would take a book or two to explore and elaborate on all the mods I did over the years.
It would be more of a fun book than a scientific one though.

___________

Tim,

I agree with you based on the various methods of listening that different speaker's stabilizations are from various appropriations.

And your room's free space and/or your room's foundations play an important role into the equation.
And without even mentioning acoustic room's treatments.

For Floor Full Range model Loudspeakers, and Speakers' Stands:

* Carpet: Good solid spikes. ...From outriggers, with top-notch stabilization, and top-mounted adjustments for easier leveling.

* Wood floor: Good solid rubber feets, using Blu-Tack to hold them firmly.
{On stands' tops: Blu-Tack, or brass screws, or even spikes.}

For Subwoofers:

* A Subwoofer 'stand base' (approximatively four inches elevation), and using spikes under the base (for carpets), or solid rubber feets (for wood floors); and with Blu-tack between the Base and the Subwoofer itself.

^ Those are only general applications I use/ed in some of my own setups.
There are many more, and for some people it is a standard, and for others a conventional habit, and others it is an exploration and constant experimentation (various rooms, or various listening moods).

What I love: Tightness, Clarity, Euphoria, Magic Highs & Lows, Pure Mids, and Total Abandon!
- And that is my type of Stabilization between me and the sound of my loudspeakers, in my room's acoustics and overall balanced space.

 

[fas42]

You're not paying attention, Frank. I very deliberately de-coupled those monitors from the desktop. I didn't put them back, sitting directly on top of it. Why? Because they sound better this way. If I blue-tak them directly to the desk, with or without the slab, my monitors will be coupled to the desk even more than before. Given their weight, I doubt that would make an audible difference, but if it did, it wouldn't be a good one. You're right that I'd get more bass. I did. I just didn't get the kind of fast, clean, well-controlled bass I like. And I'll also get my first reflections, far too close behind the direct sound, off of the hardwood surface of that desktop. You suppose that'll make my tweeters disappear?

I don't doubt that technique made an audible difference with many a small monitor. And I don't doubt that you, and many other people liked it. What I know is that I don't.

Tim

Tim, you killed my last post, you mean thing, you! The power's going to your head ...

But back to the topic. So, you haven't tried Blu-Tack, which means you got what I call waterbed bladder bass by just plonking the speakers directly on the desktop, it goes bluup, bluup, bluup, and sounds as loose as one of them bladders slurping around. That's NOT what you'll get if you do this exercise right. That's the point of adding extra weight under the speakers, to give them greater inertia, mass, tightly coupled. Using the Blu-Tack is crucial, without it everything changes.

As regards reflections, try this test with the speakers mounted right at the front edge of the desk, near the two corners. Remember, it IS an experiment!

Frank

 

[fas42]

* Me, I keep always experimenting with various techniques and materials.
From free air standing (the satellites only of course), to solidly bolted to the floor (subwoofers usually; the base stands, not the sub itself).

It would take a book or two to explore and elaborate on all the mods I did over the years.

....

What I love: Tighteness, Clarity, Euphoria, Magic Highs & Lows, Pure Mids, and Total Abandon!
- And that is my type of Stabilization between me and the sound of my loudspeakers, in my room's acoustics and overall balanced space.

Nice input, Bob , I like your thinking!

What I've always expected, and automatically achieved by the way I deal with speakers is "super" tightness in the bass, if you go and put your head somewhere in the vicinity of the the pedal on a real bassdrum, and listen to the drummer working it hard, that's what I would be working towards: tremendous impact, punch, dynamics, all the good stuff! Of course the electronics have to be up to it, but if the speaker is not "nailed" down it won't work.

Otherwise it's like getting a BMW and removing the shock absorbers, you'll still be able to go down the road but it won't be a pleasant experience.

There's plenty of literature out there talking about providing a path for the excess energy to dissipate from components, and speakers in particular, so from my point of view the speakers have to be intimate contact with the floor or a heavy object to absorb that vibrational energy, but utilise shock absorber principles to ensure excess vibration quickly decays: that's the point of using Blu-Tack, it both connects AND acts as a shock absorber ...

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

Frank,

Bass Tightness is good stuff!

Also, on some of my speakers, I put heavy marble blocks on top of them.
Helps coupling even more. ...For that additional Tightness. And overall Stabilization of course.

 

[fas42]

Frank,

Bass Tightness is good stuff!

Also, on some of my speakers, I put heavy marble blocks on top of them.
Helps coupling even more. ...For that additional Tightness. And overall Stabilization of course.

Yesssss!!

In my especially wacky times, most of the time by some people's estimation, I put a whole stack of heavy book volumes on top, people would stare!! But it helped hugely. Interestingly, steel and such like doesn't work, probably because of magnetic interference, something to be further investigated ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, you killed my last post, you mean thing, you! The power's going to your head ...

But back to the topic. So, you haven't tried Blu-Tack, which means you got what I call waterbed bladder bass by just plonking the speakers directly on the desktop, it goes bluup, bluup, bluup, and sounds as loose as one of them bladders slurping around. That's NOT what you'll get if you do this exercise right. That's the point of adding extra weight under the speakers, to give them greater inertia, mass, tightly coupled. Using the Blu-Tack is crucial, without it everything changes.

As regards reflections, try this test with the speakers mounted right at the front edge of the desk, near the two corners. Remember, it IS an experiment!

Frank

Sorry, Frank, didn't mean to. I must have edited instead of replied. I'm not power-hungry, just inept.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, you killed my last post, you mean thing, you! The power's going to your head ...

But back to the topic. So, you haven't tried Blu-Tack, which means you got what I call waterbed bladder bass by just plonking the speakers directly on the desktop, it goes bluup, bluup, bluup, and sounds as loose as one of them bladders slurping around. That's NOT what you'll get if you do this exercise right. That's the point of adding extra weight under the speakers, to give them greater inertia, mass, tightly coupled. Using the Blu-Tack is crucial, without it everything changes.

As regards reflections, try this test with the speakers mounted right at the front edge of the desk, near the two corners. Remember, it IS an experiment!

Frank

I've done experiments close enough to this one to be reluctant to stick goo all over my speaker cabinets and desk just for fun, Frank. I know I can't leave it there, because I can't listen to the speakers with them on the front edge of the desk, and I know from experience that what I want is to de-couple. If I could, I would suspend them. I don't want uncontrolled bass gain, even if it is tightly bonded/coupled gain. I want what's coming from the speakers and a bit of what I'm getting from the room (anechoic isn't pretty) any gain beyond that is simply more than I require, desire. This is an experiment for someone else. If I want more bass, I'll buy a sub.

Tim

 

[fas42]

This is an experiment for someone else. If I want more bass, I'll buy a sub.

Tim

Fair enough; except for me it has always given tighter, better controlled rather than more bass, as well as the ability to go loud cleanly and, glory be, disappearing tweeters. I acknowledge there is a downside, which is that it shines a more revealing light on electronic problems, and you can find yourself heading down that slippery slope of itching to tweak some more. Anyway, something for another day ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Fair enough; except for me it has always given tighter, better controlled rather than more bass, as well as the ability to go loud cleanly and, glory be, disappearing tweeters. I acknowledge there is a downside, which is that it shines a more revealing light on electronic problems, and you can find yourself heading down that slippery slope of itching to tweak some more. Anyway, something for another day ...

Frank

Coupling your speakers to anything that vibrates is amplifying it without control. If it sounds tighter, you're speaker cabinets were the problem and you've damped their vibration by connecting them to something bigger, heavier, more inert. But that's not what you're doing. The concrete slab/blu tack? That's isolation from the surface, not coupling to it, if your frame of reference was sitting on the surface that is now separated from the speakers by the slab, I don't doubt a bit that it is tighter. If your frame of reference was well-constructed cabinets, uncoupled from the surface altogether, you'd have a totally different experience.

And with all of that said, I imagine many people enjoy the gain they get from coupling their speakers to a vibrating surface. Enjoy.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Coupling your speakers to anything that vibrates is amplifying it without control. If it sounds tighter, you're speaker cabinets were the problem and you've damped their vibration by connecting them to something bigger, heavier, more inert. But that's not what you're doing. The concrete slab/blu tack? That's isolation from the surface, not coupling to it, if your frame of reference was sitting on the surface that is now separated from the speakers by the slab, I don't doubt a bit that it is tighter. If your frame of reference was well-constructed cabinets, uncoupled from the surface altogether, you'd have a totally different experience.

And with all of that said, I imagine many people enjoy the gain they get from coupling their speakers to a vibrating surface. Enjoy.

Tim

It sounds like you don't appreciate what Blu-Tack really is, it's a classic viscoelastic material, made easily available everywhere for people to enjoy its benefits. Industry uses this type of material for its contraining and damping properties everywhere: heavy duty viscoelastic materials are used for mounting massive diesel engines inside buildings so that the throbbing vibrations don't drive everyone in the area crazy, and stop the engine steadily shaking itself towards a breakdown.

In simple terms, viscoelastics convert movement into heat: stick a thermometer in a sample being stressed heavily and watch the bulb rise. So correct mounting of speakers on viscoelastics means that the cabinet vibrations are being soaked up by the material, sort of heatsinks for vibration.

The fact that the cabinets are well-constructed has nothing to do with it: the cone is working against its suspension, which transmits the energy to the driver frame, then to the cabinet. That box is then doing a merry little dance back and forth at a very fine level, trying to compensate for that cone movement, which gets worse at the volume rises. Intermodulation distortion, anyone? Wilson and the other big boys win because they use a sledgehammer approach to trying to damp these vibrations, weight uber alles.

I guarantee an easy way to blow an audiophile's mind: get a tiny, monitor quality speaker, Blu-Tack it extremely firmly on top of one of those on the floor bank safes, and wind up the wick. Carnegie Hall, anyone?

Frank