How Good a CD Transport is Required to Sound Better than Streaming?

Esoteric-CD.jpg
There seems to be a fairly solid consensus (Lucasz Ficus, LL21, Al M, etc.) that CD playback or computer file playback, or perhaps both, sound better than streaming (assuming, of course, that all other variables, including the DAC, are held constant).

But I assume that one cannot assume that any device that can spin a CD necessarily will achieve better sound quality than will streaming.

So how good a CD transport does one need to achieve CD playback which sounds better than streaming? Where do the lines (rising sound quality of better transport and streaming sound quality) cross?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: shel50 and wisnon
With digital, everyone's experience seems to be specific. There are many reasons that could explain this.
kid yourself all you want.
i put in a $2.5k Muon system, a $2k switch, a $1k LPS, dedicated modem / router (also on LPS) and upgraded UBS-C cable from the LPS to the Wiim. its also on stillpoints (with mass on top)---thats stacking the deck for the Wiim w/ over $6k in upgrades to benefit it.

(and my dac has proprietary jitter reduction technology, which one would think would also benefit the Wiim)

it sounds great. and its miles behind the jays.
 
kid yourself all you want.
i put in a $2.5k Muon system, a $2k switch, a $1k LPS, dedicated modem / router (also on LPS) and upgraded UBS-C cable from the LPS to the Wiim. its also on stillpoints (with mass on top)---thats stacking the deck for the Wiim w/ over $6k in upgrades to benefit it.

(and my dac has proprietary jitter reduction technology, which one would think would also benefit the Wiim)

it sounds great. and its miles behind the jays.
kid yourself all you want.
i put in a $2.5k Muon system, a $2k switch, a $1k LPS, dedicated modem / router (also on LPS) and upgraded UBS-C cable from the LPS to the Wiim. its also on stillpoints (with mass on top)---thats stacking the deck for the Wiim w/ over $6k in upgrades to benefit it.

(and my dac has proprietary jitter reduction technology, which one would think would also benefit the Wiim)

it sounds great. and its miles behind the jays.
Well, I like the honesty that it's miles behind the Jay's. I was concerned someone would say that their streaming was miles ahead of the Jay's and CDs. Using a server with great mastered high sonic quality recordings appears to be just as rewarding per my own audition and that of my friends.
 
A WiiM streamer will be a compromise in any high quality streaming system. This Alpha Audio review lines up with the others I've read:

Pros

  • Cheap
  • Great app
  • All usual connectivity

Cons

  • Disappointing result with a better DAC
  • Upgrade of the power supply has limited effect

Conclusion

The conclusion, maybe unfortunately, is that the WiiM Pro+ is not the affordable diamond using it as a streaming bridge. Building a streamer at this price point forces a manufacturer to choose where to cut corners and that is clearly audible. The limits of the WiiM Pro+ performance are found pretty quick.

We value the WiiM Pro+ analogue out, it really delivers great value for money. But when you invest in a better DAC, you also need to invest in a better streamer to get return on that investment. The WiiM Pro+ just falls short and is not a good budget conscious choice to pair with a better DAC.

 
Last edited:
A WiiM streamer will be a compromise in any high quality streaming system. This Alpha Audio review lines up with the others I've read:

Pros

  • Cheap
  • Great app
  • All usual connectivity

Cons

  • Disappointing result with a better DAC
  • Upgrade of the power supply has limited effect

Conclusion

The conclusion, maybe unfortunately, is that the WiiM Pro+ is not the affordable diamond using it as a streaming bridge. Building a streamer at this price point forces a manufacturer to choose where to cut corners and that is clearly audible. The limits of the WiiM Pro+ performance are found pretty quick.

We value the WiiM Pro+ analogue out, it really delivers great value for money. But when you invest in a better DAC, you also need to invest in a better streamer to get return on that investment. The WiiM Pro+ just falls short and is not a good budget conscious choice to pair with a better DAC.

Funny, because my findings are the opposite when you insert a "better DAC". Endless debate...
 
Funny, because my findings are the opposite when you insert a "better DAC". Endless debate...
I don’t know if you read the review. They didn’t say that the sound won't improve with a better external DAC. They said you will experience more of what the better DAC has to offer with a higher quality streamer.
I can't explain your findings, but other reviews I read compared the WiiM Pro to the BlueSound Node, and judged the Node superior. I don’t know of anyone claiming the Node is some sonic gem.
 
I don’t know if you read the review. They didn’t say that the sound won't improve with a better external DAC. They said you will experience more of what the better DAC has to offer with a higher quality streamer.
I can't explain your findings, but other reviews I read compared the WiiM Pro to the BlueSound Node, and judged the Node superior. I don’t know of anyone claiming the Node is some sonic gem.

I just judge on the end result, the entire system, and i have heard plenty of unconvincing digital irrespective of price.

Last unconvincing one I heard was this one, with a very expensive DAC and streamer:

images.jpeg

Maybe on that system streamer X will sound better than streamer Y, but if the end result in both cases is crap, what's the point? You just end up splitting hairs...

I'm skeptical of all these reviews rehashing the same BS. You get 5 people in a room all day swapping USB cables, or network switches, and you think they have any perspective? I have witnessed it first hand many times.

On the other hand there are plenty of audiophiles who have high quality systems and end up completely satisfied with basic digital sources.

Here is an example:


To be fair, the author actually slightly prefers another bargain but vintage model:

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: SeagoatLeo
Much of this is system dependent. I know this is WBF but many on this site don't have high end systems (I didn't until Jan 2024). The Shanling ET3 is great low cost transport at $729. I use it in my second system which is excellent sounding but with old used components of reduced resolution (Legacy Signature III speakers). It mimics my $235,000 system and is enjoyable. I would like many audiophiles who own high end systems have as emotionally appealing sound.
 
I just judge on the end result, the entire system, and i have heard plenty of unconvincing digital irrespective of price.

Last unconvincing one I heard was this one, with a very expensive DAC and streamer:

View attachment 152860

Maybe on that system streamer X will sound better than streamer Y, but if the end result in both cases is crap, what's the point? You just end up splitting hairs...

I'm skeptical of all these reviews rehashing the same BS. You get 5 people in a room all day swapping USB cables, or network switches, and you think they have any perspective? I have witnessed it first hand many times.

On the other hand there are plenty of audiophiles who have high quality systems and end up completely satisfied with basic digital sources.

Here is an example:


To be fair, the author actually slightly prefers another bargain but vintage model:

I love chamber music and with my 2 systems, a good recording (not too reverberant) sound like they are performing in from of me. I record the Viklarbo Chamber group for 9 years and it's astonishing to be so close to those musicians and going home to hear them again. The second system is tube based but the digital consists of the Shanling ET3 and Topping D70s. The cabling was more expensive than the equipment.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: No Regrets
Hello, thanks for sharing all that and just wanted to add a few things about the Jay's CDT here. The CDT2 is a very good sounding CDT and I can't think of how anyone would be unhappy with it. But the CDT3 really is one of the best sounding sources available at any cost, truly. In direct comparison somehow it is even more clear and resolving than the CDT2. Speaking from my own side by side experience.

I assume it's at least partially because of the maximum effort CLK it has, the whole R 3rd of the unit is dedicated to that CLK and its PSUs. We tried to master CLK the CDT3 with a couple of expensive external units (eg, Esotriec) and it did change slightly but didn't improve IMO. A first really IME.
And I assume the more expensive Pro2 mechanism plays some role as well but I have no way to compare to the CDM4 in the same unit. They also treat the output logic almost like analog with some high end local supply bypassing. Etc.

The CDT also offer an upsampling feature which might be appropriate for a DAC that is NOS for example.

In general I'd rank the output SQ as I2S > AES > SPDIF so it's usually best to use the I2S out if you can. Or even AES out to a good DDC to the DAC. AES is "pro" SPDIF essentially but it generally gets the nod over regular SPDIF IME as it uses differential signaling at least. I use a Gaia DDC in my own system and really like it.

Thanks, TK

Hi Todd,

It has not been my experience that an external 10 MHz clock feeding directly into the CDT3 hardly provides an improvement. On the contrary, I find it rather obvious on some, even though admittedly not all, music.

It will also depend on the clock of course; my Mutec REF10 SE120 is one of the best measuring 10 MHz clocks on the market. You mention Esoteric clocks; I searched for available measurements but couldn't find any (the published specifications are of limited value).

Here is a link to my review:

 
  • Like
Reactions: Ed.P
Assuming we accept the idea that someone considers a particular CD transport the best, most probably the Wadax would sound better. The Wadax, as other top digital systems. is tuned for an absence of digital artifacts and has its own sound signature. The top CD transports are highly tuned devices and have strong sound signatures - I do not expect them to match the Wadax by hazard.
I'm not even sure there's a CD transport, at your time of writing or now, that's somehow comparable to the all-out construction and design excellence of the Wadax server (which btw. is priced close to $200k). You could argue the benchmark goal of the Wadax is not really about this or that approach (i.e.: disc reading vs. streaming ), but simply that it's presumably the best at what it does regardless. So, what's the basis for a comparison here - not least for the remaining, mere mortals among us that can't invest a million or more $$ total into our hobby?

What's interesting to me personally is comparing streamers up to or in the $15k to $20k range - sort of the best that can be offered in this price and performance "hot spot" for an outlay that is relatively attainable, like Grimm's MU1 and others - to CD transports like Pro-Ject's RS2T. I've heard both of them in different, outboard active setups that share very similar traits and that I know very well, and both setups with each their source delivery are great sounding.

However my sonic preference lies with the setup that uses the Pro-Ject CD transport for ultimately sounding more fleshed out, organic and live-like - mind you, at a price incl. Pro-Ject's linear UNI 4-way PSU that's about 1/4 of the Grimm MU1. Yes, there's only access to the physical CD library at one's disposal (which may be considerable), but judging by sound quality alone - assuming the MU1 is representative of some of the best that can be had within its price range - I'd say streamers for a less than stratospheric dough still have a ways to go match let alone beat (cheaper) CD transports in vital areas - if you ask me.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: rhyno
I'm not even sure there's a CD transport, at your time of writing or now, that's somehow comparable to the all-out construction and design excellence of the Wadax server (which btw. is priced close to $200k).
I read this and got Wadax mixed up with Wadia LOL. I was thinking that there might be some used market deals to be had!

I've heard the Wadax Studio player twice, and the Reference server in a superb setup. I haven't warmed up to either sonically. Especially the Studio Player, to my ears it sounded a bit thin and forward and 'plastic-y'. So in other words, like CD playback overall. I'm not sure why as I have great respect for what they are doing. This may speak to your take on tuning.

I still have fondness for the Levinson Reference Transport I used to have, and today would buy the Teac VRDS-701T transport, and play around with clocks to try to improve it.

I am still ripping some CDs for local streaming, and I use a vintage Plextor Premium CD Drive (made in San Jose CA around 2000) with a linear power supply and a good USB cable. To me having a quality purpose built mechanism is the key to the best sound in a transport.
 
I'm not even sure there's a CD transport, at your time of writing or now, that's somehow comparable to the all-out construction and design excellence of the Wadax server (which btw. is priced close to $200k). You could argue the benchmark goal of the Wadax is not really about this or that approach (i.e.: disc reading vs. streaming ), but simply that it's presumably the best at what it does regardless. So, what's the basis for a comparison here - not least for the remaining, mere mortals among us that can't invest a million or more $$ total into our hobby?

What's interesting to me personally is comparing streamers up to or in the $15k to $20k range - sort of the best that can be offered in this price and performance "hot spot" for an outlay that is relatively attainable, like Grimm's MU1 and others - to CD transports like Pro-Ject's RS2T. I've heard both of them in different, outboard active setups that share very similar traits and that I know very well, and both setups with each their source delivery are great sounding.

However my sonic preference lies with the setup that uses the Pro-Ject CD transport for ultimately sounding more fleshed out, organic and live-like - mind you, at a price incl. Pro-Ject's linear UNI 4-way PSU that's about 1/4 of the Grimm MU1. Yes, there's only access to the physical CD library at one's disposal (which may be considerable), but judging by sound quality alone - assuming the MU1 is representative of some of the best that can be had within its price range - I'd say streamers for a less than stratospheric dough still have a ways to go beat let alone match (cheaper) CD transports in vital areas - if you ask me.
I think this kind of misses the point. One invests in a quality CD transport if one (like me) has accumulated many thousands of CDs over four decades, most of which are either unavailable (e.g., rare international releases) or released only on CD (e.g., the legendary Mosaic Jazz box sets). Of course, one can always "rip" a CD onto a hard drive (as I have done with most of mine), but my general impression after having listened to over 6000 ripped CDs is that the quality is not the same. A CD is ripped usually by a high-speed ripper, and unless great care is done with ripping, there is no guarantee that the errors made in reading a CD at high speed are in any way comparable to what a quality CD transport produces. So, CD ripping is certainly highly convenient, especially for someone like me who has CDs all over the house and often can't find a particular CD!

I have zero interest in investing huge sums of money in any kind of server, most of which go obsolete soon (and as a check on used audio markets show, their value often plummets to a small fraction of the original cost). At the end of the day, whether you invest in a quality CD transport depends on whether you have a large investment in actual CD software, which you intend to keep for the long haul. To me, CDs offer incomparable advantages: for one, there are valuable liner notes, e.g. the incomparable liner notes of Mosaic jazz boxsets, or opera libretti.

As someone who listens a lot to opera, there is no musical medium that is more harmful to opera than streaming. Most streaming software has no clue how to handle opera properly, and often Tidal or Qobuz are appallingly bad at handling opera tracks. A recent listen to a Verdi opera (Nabucco) on a DG CD that I have in my collection reminded me of how bad opera sounds on streaming. Gaps are skipped over, ruining the whole experience, liner notes and libretti are completely absent in almost all cases except for a small number, and well, the sound, that's subjective, but let's just say it leaves a lot to be desired.

Of course, if you are someone who listens to music as a kind of "elevator schmaltz", preferring to listen to endless streams of Roon Radio, much as you hear at a dentist's office or a mall, it's hard to beat streaming for the kind of endless playlist one can get. That to me is musical horror. But, hey, perhaps folks like me are a dying breed! The future is undoubtedly streaming, but I don't ever plan to get rid of my CDs (or for that matter, my vinyl). That's not to say I don't enjoy streaming: I have been a Roon lifetime member from the beginning. Streaming is a great way for me to hear exotic composers that I don't have in my collection, or rare albums that I missed. But, eventually if I like something I hear on streaming, I buy the album. With streaming, there is no guarantee that any release will stick around. Hundreds of albums on my playlist have just disappeared. No explanation. Just poof: one day it's there, the next day, it's gone. How streaming can ever be a reliable musical library is beyond me, unless you like the endless elevator schmaltz that streaming provides, and you care not what or who you are listening to.
 
(...) A CD is ripped usually by a high-speed ripper, and unless great care is done with ripping, there is no guarantee that the errors made in reading a CD at high speed are in any way comparable to what a quality CD transport produces. (...)

Just to point that if we use some ripper we have objective evidence and confirmation that rips are bit exact. In such rippers the rips are checked with a database kept by AccurateRip.
 
Just to point that if we use some ripper we have objective evidence and confirmation that rips are bit exact. In such rippers the rips are checked with a database kept by AccurateRip.
My friends and I use EAC (Exact Audio Copy). It uses AccurateRip. When I copy a CD from EAC to a digital copy (e.g. thumb drive, hard drive such as an SSDs, etc.) they sound exactly the same through good quality Lumin and other servers I've heard. So, copying digital information can be done bit perfectly and sound the same.
 
  • Like
Reactions: audiobomber
I read this and got Wadax mixed up with Wadia LOL. I was thinking that there might be some used market deals to be had!

I've heard the Wadax Studio player twice, and the Reference server in a superb setup. I haven't warmed up to either sonically.
hi John,

you mean this session?

scroll down for the report about the visit to my room. appreciated the kind words for sure. and that was prior to my addition of the Wadax Ref Power Supply and Akasa DC cables.

here is what you wrote then..... "His digital front end was a WADAX, and while we didn't play a lot of digital tracks, it was pure and open unlike other digital I've experienced."

maybe you were just being polite.
 
I think this kind of misses the point. One invests in a quality CD transport if one (like me) has accumulated many thousands of CDs over four decades, most of which are either unavailable (e.g., rare international releases) or released only on CD (e.g., the legendary Mosaic Jazz box sets). Of course, one can always "rip" a CD onto a hard drive (as I have done with most of mine), but my general impression after having listened to over 6000 ripped CDs is that the quality is not the same. A CD is ripped usually by a high-speed ripper, and unless great care is done with ripping, there is no guarantee that the errors made in reading a CD at high speed are in any way comparable to what a quality CD transport produces. So, CD ripping is certainly highly convenient, especially for someone like me who has CDs all over the house and often can't find a particular CD!

I have zero interest in investing huge sums of money in any kind of server, most of which go obsolete soon (and as a check on used audio markets show, their value often plummets to a small fraction of the original cost). At the end of the day, whether you invest in a quality CD transport depends on whether you have a large investment in actual CD software, which you intend to keep for the long haul. To me, CDs offer incomparable advantages: for one, there are valuable liner notes, e.g. the incomparable liner notes of Mosaic jazz boxsets, or opera libretti.

As someone who listens a lot to opera, there is no musical medium that is more harmful to opera than streaming. Most streaming software has no clue how to handle opera properly, and often Tidal or Qobuz are appallingly bad at handling opera tracks. A recent listen to a Verdi opera (Nabucco) on a DG CD that I have in my collection reminded me of how bad opera sounds on streaming. Gaps are skipped over, ruining the whole experience, liner notes and libretti are completely absent in almost all cases except for a small number, and well, the sound, that's subjective, but let's just say it leaves a lot to be desired.

Of course, if you are someone who listens to music as a kind of "elevator schmaltz", preferring to listen to endless streams of Roon Radio, much as you hear at a dentist's office or a mall, it's hard to beat streaming for the kind of endless playlist one can get. That to me is musical horror. But, hey, perhaps folks like me are a dying breed! The future is undoubtedly streaming, but I don't ever plan to get rid of my CDs (or for that matter, my vinyl). That's not to say I don't enjoy streaming: I have been a Roon lifetime member from the beginning. Streaming is a great way for me to hear exotic composers that I don't have in my collection, or rare albums that I missed. But, eventually if I like something I hear on streaming, I buy the album. With streaming, there is no guarantee that any release will stick around. Hundreds of albums on my playlist have just disappeared. No explanation. Just poof: one day it's there, the next day, it's gone. How streaming can ever be a reliable musical library is beyond me, unless you like the endless elevator schmaltz that streaming provides, and you care not what or who you are listening to.
If you like opera, maybe you would also like historically significant opera and classical vocal recordings with superb biographical/historical booklets. Marston records (also piano) has those (as well as Marston's Romophone CDs). So much of my music collection is unavailable and won't be available for streaming. Mosaic boxes are another perfect example. I just bought the Harry James & Gene Krupa box set. Amazing! Also the Bear Family History Beyond Recall 11 CD set of Central and Eastern European Jewish music has a huge book with the set which explains details on each selection and the history (one record was restored from six broken pieces).
 
I read this and got Wadax mixed up with Wadia LOL. I was thinking that there might be some used market deals to be had!

I've heard the Wadax Studio player twice, and the Reference server in a superb setup. I haven't warmed up to either sonically. Especially the Studio Player, to my ears it sounded a bit thin and forward and 'plastic-y'. So in other words, like CD playback overall. I'm not sure why as I have great respect for what they are doing. This may speak to your take on tuning.

I still have fondness for the Levinson Reference Transport I used to have, and today would buy the Teac VRDS-701T transport, and play around with clocks to try to improve it.

I am still ripping some CDs for local streaming, and I use a vintage Plextor Premium CD Drive (made in San Jose CA around 2000) with a linear power supply and a good USB cable. To me having a quality purpose built mechanism is the key to the best sound in a transport.
"the Studio Player, to my ears it sounded a bit thin and forward and 'plastic-y'. So in other words, like CD playback overall."

Maybe that's what CDs sound like in your system, but not in mine or several friends of mine. Mine has a superior resolution system (only partially SOTA). There is nothing plastic-y or thin in my CD playback unless the CD is drek, poorly recorded or mastered. I have disposed of those and have more to audition. I hardily disagree with your characterization of CD playback in general.
 
  • Like
Reactions: facten and Al M.
I have ripped using DB Poweramp and gotten very good reaults. I don't have a cd player. But my rips are my best digital source.

Downloads from Qobuz I purchase are also very good. Better than the stream.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SeagoatLeo

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing