How Do You Think About Cost/Benefit Analysis for Your System?

[PeterA]

And you managed to buy your dream system and keep your boat !

And both are hobbies one really only discusses with those who share the same interest. There are some interesting similarities.

 

[Al M.]

My system is probably very cheap compared to the average on this forum, but I still find the cost to be high, so it is hard for me to think of it in terms of cost/benefit.

In 1950 you could buy an Altec 755A speaker for 20$, so the equivalent of 250$ today... What has happened to "Hi-Fi"?

It became better.

 

[PeterA]

My system is probably very cheap compared to the average on this forum, but I still find the cost to be high, so it is hard for me to think of it in terms of cost/benefit.

In 1950 you could buy an Altec 755A speaker for 20$, so the equivalent of 250$ today... What has happened to "Hi-Fi"?

It became more expensive.

 

[Kingrex]

I am blown away by what a pair of amp stands did for my system. I am playing music 12 DB higher and its smooth and clean. I am over the top happy. Accept that I now want to address my equipment rack. I think the cost/benefit ratio looks pretty high for me.

 

[gadawg58]

Right this second I’d rate my system an 8 but when new amps and preamp arrive along with new DAC I’d say a solid 9.5 for me. Don’t even want to think about how much money over the years but for me the benefit far outweighs the cost as I can just get lost in the music for hours on end. Once in a while I’ll even look up and realize the sun is coming up … for me .. priceless!

George

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am blown away by what a pair of amp stands did for my system. I am playing music 12 DB higher and its smooth and clean. I am over the top happy. Accept that I now want to address my equipment rack. I think the cost/benefit ratio looks pretty high for me.

Do you mean that without the amp stands the sound was edgy or aggressive or bright?

 

[Tuckers]

I am blown away by what a pair of amp stands did for my system.

When you get to a certain level, these kind of things always make a much bigger impact than you think they would! One of my goals in 2024 is to get a new large horizontal rack for my system. I take it you've read about the advantages of air-dried/cured maple over kiln dried/cured? Its great you were able to create this!

I visited an audiophile's home today with another enthusiast to do a compare of two digital front ends. I also brought some of my most effective tweaks to see if their impact might be in the same league in the difference between the items under test. This was specifically because the owner heard very little difference between the two front ends that had a price difference of about 7X! Two additional sets of ears confirmed that the difference was small and that we preferred the less expensive gear by a small margin. I installed a few tweaks that make a pretty obvious difference in my system. The effect in this system was very much smaller, almost negligible for most of them. My point being that when a system hits a certain amount of revealingness, you hear these differences/improvements so much clearer. We did settle on one $200 tweak to calm the EMI in the servers, and we all agreed the improvement was far more than the difference between the front ends that had a 7X price differential. My point in bringing these things to our session was to show that sometimes the improvements in very expensive equipment upgrades could be less than carefully curated tweaks. So we just saved our friend a nice 5 figures today

 

[gadawg58]

I am blown away by what a pair of amp stands did for my system. I am playing music 12 DB higher and its smooth and clean. I am over the top happy. Accept that I now want to address my equipment rack. I think the cost/benefit ratio looks pretty high for me.

For me as well ... I have tube amps and have to say that getting my amps onto HRS M3 platforms made a huge difference in overall clarity in the system along with more precise imaging. It was night and day in my system. Not surprising in my case though with needing to isolate the tubes from vibration with Wilson Alexx and a pair of Rel No25's.

George

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am playing music 12 DB higher l

Four (4) times the prior SPL?

 

[Kingrex]

Do you mean that without the amp stands the sound was edgy or aggressive or bright?

Yes. But remember, theae are brand new to me. I am feeling my way around getting them set. From the day I received them, they sat on a piexe of plywood they were shipped on. That sat on a piece of acrylic. The amps themselves were on wine corks I cut in half.

Its actually a big learn for me that equipment can be influenced by the surface they set on that much.

 

[Kingrex]

Here is another one. I have to do more validating but initial thoughts.
I have the Puritan Routemaster in. I have done a bunch of unplug, listen, plug in, listen. I don't think I could ever pass a blind test. I can't hear it.

But, I have noticed. My preamp has 2 large outboard power supplies. One has always had a little mechanical hum. You notice when you get up close. The same was occurring with my new amps. One has a power transformer that when you get up close has a little mechanical hum. After the Puritan has been in and I get up close to either amp or the preamp power supplies, they are all close to totally quiet.
The Puritan is not attached to anything on the amps. But it does have 2 RCA connectors attached to the signal out from pre to amps. One each on left and right channel.

 

[Kingrex]

My point in bringing these things to our session was to show that sometimes the improvements in very expensive equipment upgrades could be less than carefully curated tweaks. So we just saved our friend a nice 5 figures today

Agreed. Spend some time tuning your system. And some tweeks that migbt seem silly may work. The question becomes, how much of what. Take for instance a fuse. I have a couple Hifi Supreme Copper fuses in the mail. $79 each. I hope they work. I expect choking my power down to a thin strand of copper attached to a copper end will sound different than choked to a thin piece of tin with tin end. BUT would I find a $700 to $3000 fuse be that much more. Cost/benefit.

Now I am diverging from the original cost benefit to tweak benefit. But for me, my system is fairly set for major components. I am tuning what I have.

 

[Kingrex]

I take it you've read about the advantages of air-dried/cured maple over kiln dried/cured? Its great you were able to create this!

I have not read this. I'm a bit bummed about this whole wood topic. The friend whose home I got the wood from. He cut a few large trees down and the logs were split and stacked in the yard. Then he got a place in HI and moved part of the year. I asked if I could go to his place and get a couple. A few months later he decides to sell the place. All that nice wood left sitting in the yard. I only have 1 slab of maple left. I would need 2 more to complete a shelf project. Now I have to think about gluing up strips like TimberNation does with stands. That will cost me around $30 a foot.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...the glued-up maple is very stable. I have slabs and I have glued-up versions, and would not hesitate to recommend either, although a single-piece can have an aesthetic advantage in some cases, IMO.

 

[Elliot G.]

ok, thanks. much better.

as far as my system, I do view it as an 'all out assault' based on my particular audiophile/music viewpoint. others would maybe have different priorities. since nothing is ever perfect, I'll go with 9.85 out of 10 for performance.

as far as being at peace with the system as it is--that I'll give it 10 out of 10.

cost/benefit? I can't assign my view of my benefit to any broader group. only for me. and only for how things look right now. there have been moments in the past where I felt I had over-committed to this hobby relative to my life. we look at Ken Fritz as a guy who was even more committed than me to the hobby, even more obsessive, and read about his family's comments about it. so I try to stay somewhat real world about things......in a relative sense.

I do spend a ton of time listening and really get a great deal of pleasure out of pure listening, and out of the culture of the hobby. it enriches my life to a high degree. so lots of benefits on many levels. if I took my system investment, cut it by two thirds over the last 20-30 years, and did something else with that money would I be happier? I'll never know.

I know I smile every time I enter my listening room, sit down, and listen. I never take it for granted. it's always where my mind wants to be. there is always an ahhhhhh to it. satisfying and calming. I'm in my happy place.

I view my system as serving me, not me being a slave to it. but I'm probably on the edge of sanity.

not getting into dollars.....plenty I suppose.

The music is so important to me and I spend a lot of time keeping myself sane in that room. Music can and does enhance my life, change my mood and enrich me. I live for it.
The money part I try not to dwell on. If I like it and I can afford it I buy it. I don't spend to much time worring about the resale or ROI or investment thought at all. I don't do it for that , ever. LIfe is short and things that bring me joy and happiness are few, especially those I can get it from on demand.
If it infringed on my ability to pay my bills etc. then I would not be doing it.
Music is life!!!

 

[Tuckers]

I have not read this. I'm a bit bummed about this whole wood topic. The friend whose home I got the wood from. He cut a few large trees down and the logs were split and stacked in the yard. Then he got a place in HI and moved part of the year. I asked if I could go to his place and get a couple. A few months later he decides to sell the place. All that nice wood left sitting in the yard. I only have 1 slab of maple left. I would need 2 more to complete a shelf project. Now I have to think about gluing up strips like TimberNation does with stands. That will cost me around $30 a foot.

Mapleshade used to sell air dried maple shelves. They don't currently, I guess because there is no longer a source. Luthiers have long held that air dried wood is superior sonically, and that kiln drying results in a less rigid structure and deadens the sound/sucks the life out of the instruments by bursting the cells of the wood. Here is a discussion.

I'm looking at these, kiln dried maple shelves.

 

[Kingrex]

Mapleshade used to sell air dried maple shelves. They don't currently, I guess because there is no longer a source. Luthiers have long held that air dried wood is superior sonically, and that kiln drying results in a less rigid structure and deadens the sound/sucks the life out of the instruments by bursting the cells of the wood. Here is a discussion.

I'm looking at these, kiln dried maple shelves.

So, I like a lot about the rigid rack. But I worry. This is my original amp stands. They were a total disaster. Smeared, grainy, forward and just unpleasant. The problem I believe. I split the wood to take the cup out. Then I used a cross piece of maple to scew the pieces to it. Now take a look how Rigid Rack lands the shelves on the uprights. Same way. Timber Nation is similar but they notch the legs and lock the shelf into the notch. If you look at Rons page on Rhapsody NY, you will see Bob uses Timber Nation racks.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...IMO kiln-dried wood is fine. I scanned the link you provided @Tuckers and I agree that how wood is kiln-dried, is the important factor. For example, I have a very good source for wood nearby, and I know they only trade in quality sources.

By contrast, I have air-dried maple platforms and shelves from the company mentioned above (MS) and they are crap. Not flat. Not right. Perhaps that's why they're not spec-ing that wood (if they're not--I don't follow them). I have used their hardware, however.

You surely can alter the structure of the wood through drying. I used autoclaved wood for my deck. It's American ash, but "cooked" in a controlled oven in Europe to reduce the lignin content.

New, it looks like walnut, but silvers-up over time outside. This wood is *very* hard and my understanding is the lignins are "baked out" and insects have no interest and it's hard, hard, hard.

Again, IMO how wood is stored and finished is also an important piece of the process. If you've ever had a wood floor installed, you may have noticed the installers want to get the wood to your house for a week, at least, to normalize to that temp and RH. Good Luck!

 

[Lee]

We have many WBF members who do not apply a cost/benefit analysis to their components, rooms and systems. They spare no expense to achieve state of the art playback in their selected format(s).

Most of us do not have the luxury to pursue the hobby at that level of maximum "all-out assault."
Personally, I actually enjoy the concept of trying to achieve what I appreciated as relatively high sine of value per dollar.

I felt that way about my prior VPI/Martin Logan/VTL/ system, and, at a higher target point, I feel that way about my current system.
how do you think about this question?

On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being price-no-object, all out assault, stateof-the-art, where do you think your system currently is falling?

I think my prior system (circa 1990s) was something in the 6 to 7 sound quality range, and cost at MSRP around US$50,000. I think my current system is something in the 8 to 9 sound quality range, and costs at MSRP around US$400,000

I feel like my current system on a 1-10 scale is somewhere between 8.5 to 9. It's very natural sounding and lifelike and I just lose all sense of time when I am down there.

The investment was heavy over the last two years but having industry accommodation made it much more doable. Considering the amount of stress relief and pure joy I get I think it has been worth it.

I also think beyond the musical enjoyment, this hobby offers a nice path for continual learning. There are many layers to the onion if you will.

 

[Lee]

Agreed. Spend some time tuning your system. And some tweeks that migbt seem silly may work. The question becomes, how much of what. Take for instance a fuse. I have a couple Hifi Supreme Copper fuses in the mail. $79 each. I hope they work. I expect choking my power down to a thin strand of copper attached to a copper end will sound different than choked to a thin piece of tin with tin end. BUT would I find a $700 to $3000 fuse be that much more. Cost/benefit.

Now I am diverging from the original cost benefit to tweak benefit. But for me, my system is fairly set for major components. I am tuning what I have.

I can see the transformer six feet away from my listening room window. Does that count?