Has the focus of the forum shifted? Is it the marketing, promotion and cheerleading arm of selected companies? Has advertising changed the landscape?

[wil]

I pulled this from another Thread where Wil posted. It made me think on something. What I have seen suppressed many times and has lead to many good people leaving the forum is members that no longer post about issues or bad experience they have with gear. You are only allowed to cheerlead. Anyone who rises up and says they are having issues is shouted down and driven off the forum. That is why all the best members left, outside Ted Denny.

I do not think this is a forum owner or moderator issue. Its a members issue. There are ego tied with money. The members have spent big $$$ and do not want anyone telling them, or publicizing the purchase they made has issue. Just recently on Rons thread he mentioned Boulder and someone immediately slashed out of the water and attacked Ron for bringing up Boulder as an example of what he did not like.

To a large degree, the manufacturer marketing, promotions and cheerleading are all ego driven, consumer backed hype that hides and protects the manufacturer from revealing flaws and deficiency in their equipment. Its not Whatbestforum doing it.
No I am not going to name names and draw out manufacturer. But we all have had conversations with friends who are pissed about something in the purchases they made, yet won't go public. If they choose to do that, then honor them and respect their comments as a reality and possible flaw the manufacturer might need to address. if anything, they may go the Monico route and fix the issues so that their product works better, instead of putting out the same flaw for others to suffer with.

I agree, the cheerleading can certainly start to feel a little smothered with too much group-think.

Everything you read here has to be done so with your critical thinking filter turned on.

I’d like to see this a place where challenging, but thoughtful, questions can be asked of manufacturers. If they can’t give meaningful answers to such questions, then that should tell you something!

On the other hand, I don’t think this should be a place where poisonous and intellectually dishonest loose cannons, with no other purpose than drawing attention to themselves (and perhaps their YouTube channels), should be tolerated.

I haven’t agreed with some of the bannings that have taken place here, but sometimes it’s the right move.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I used to enjoy reading from the group of German vinyl guys on Audiogon. They seems no less serious in their commitment to the hobby, and they had great passion. I think some were also philosophers, so discussions were quite interesting.

There was a time here when hobbyists wrote rather long essays about new gear they had received for their systems. I wrote amature reviews for much of my Pass stuff and cartridges. Ack wrote a lot about his modifications to Spectral and his VPI turntable. People read those and there was some nice follow up. New product releases were also popular. I do not see much of that anymore with speakers like Magico and Wilson, or cables, or turntables.

those ebb and flow. maybe some of those are not on your radar as much.

You did a lot of that with your various tables and platforms, etc.

i'm not in my discovery, system development stage, any more. when i write about being done.....it's......really......true. OTOH if i actually downsize to a smaller home, then i'll have a new room to post about. a 50/50 proposition right now.

yet my lust for great sound and interest in the hobby has not abated at all. probably i'm more selective about what i post about. and i don't post about videos so that keeps me away from some threads.

Perhaps I just don't see those threads pop up these days. I guess the real difference is the nature of the content shifting here. Change happens.

it seems like there are new things coming up all the time. it's up to the forum to support them. we get out of the forum what we invest in it, and nothing more.

 

[Tangram]

I am but a humble hobbyist who has never worked in the industry. The closest I get is selling records on Discogs. But there's no doubt WBF forums have higher industry participation than any other audio forum that I know of. In particular, many thread titles reference a specific (often esoteric) piece of equipment, rather than more overarching themes (although Ron tries). I think that's because WBF tends to attract seasoned audiophiles who are past the stage where they need to collect foundational knowledge on the hobby. But it is hard to discount that these threads aren't just marketing, rather than starting an open and honest discussion. I've only been kicking around WBF for a couple of years and I've noticed the change in that brief period.

A solution is for WBF members who don't have an agenda to become more active starting threads. TBH though, my attempts to do this have died on the vine pretty quickly, despite what I think is an interesting topic, making me reluctant to be a thread starter here.

 

[PeterA]

I am but a humble hobbyist who has never worked in the industry. The closest I get is selling records on Discogs. But there's no doubt WBF forums have higher industry participation than any other audio forum that I know of. In particular, many thread titles reference a specific (often esoteric) piece of equipment, rather than more overarching themes (although Ron tries). I think that's because WBF tends to attract seasoned audiophiles who are past the stage where they need to collect foundational knowledge on the hobby. But it is hard to discount that these threads aren't just marketing, rather than starting an open and honest discussion. I've only been kicking around WBF for a couple of years and I've noticed the change in that brief period.

A solution is for WBF members who don't have an agenda to become more active starting threads. TBH though, my attempts to do this have died on the vine pretty quickly, despite what I think is an interesting topic, making me reluctant to be a thread starter here.

I started what I thought was an interesting topic about how vinyl and digital actually sound different. Not preference, measurements, convenience, cost or what sound better. I simply invited people to describe subjectively what differences they actually hear when listening to both in the same system. How does that string quartet, Jazz trio, the piano, the drums, the cello, sound different? The space of the hall? The scale and placement of the musicians? It did not go far.

 

[Ron Resnick]

WBF is just less messed up than other forums, and more satisfying to be involved with. with heavier hitters and more serious commitment to the hobby than other forums. more serious discussions. stronger feelings. which is what makes it special. and sometimes get's feather's ruffled.

+1

I say substantially this to people all the time, both publicly and privately. Anytime you deal with the public there is nonsense to deal with. It doesn't matter if you're a barber or you give piano lessons or you have a retail store or you design websites for people or you're a stand-up comedian or you manage an automobile dealership or you are a stock broker or a fortune teller or you have an online hobby forum.

I truly believe what Mike says here. I truly believe WBF has less nonsense than any other public, on-line audio forum in the world. This is one reason I love WBF.

 

[Holmz]

+1

I say substantially this to people all the time, both publicly and privately. Anytime you deal with the public there is nonsense to deal with. It doesn't matter if you're a barber or you give piano lessons or you have a retail store or you design websites for people or you're a stand-up comedian or you manage an automobile dealership or you are a stock broker or a fortune teller or you have an online hobby forum.

I truly believe what Mike says here. I truly believe WBF has less nonsense than any other public, on-line audio forum in the world. This is one reason I love WBF.

Everyone believes that they are above average, their families, and their friends group.
But it is statistically unlikely, unless one is doing Escher math.

But yeah - go ahead and slap yourself on the back.

 

[Kbh57]

I'm reluctant to add my thoughts because I doubt anyone cares and I'm just someone who likes good gear and good music, don't claim to know what others should think sounds best. I have spent a fair amount of coin supporting those making a living in this hobby, so that's something. I like to learn about this stuff - I find it fascinating. I like WBF-lots of people to learn from, sometimes you have to cut through the haughty part, but that's okay, they make interesting points. I admit, I don't understand how folks can get emotional over what someone thinks sounds the best to their ears as long as I'm free to choose what's best for my ears. But even the hurled barbs over vinyl vs digital or some such can be entertaining in a WWF kind of way, and there are intelligent points to learn from in those threads.

I'm on another unnamed but easily guessed forum that's completely different. Some smart people there too, but the discussions go from 0 to mean as a biting sow in a heartbeat, and none of it clever. What they lack in originality of insults they make up for in volume. Discussions often turn political with the inevitable results. God (and Ron) save us from that fate. WBF has more wheat, less chaff. I think it is well moderated and mostly populated by gentlemen passionate and knowledgeable about this hobby. The fact that some make a living at it is fine-a plus actually-as long as all financial entanglements are disclosed.

It comes up occasionally that there are undisclosed financial interests on the part of some who champion certain brands. If true, that's wrong, way wrong. Because someone might, in even a small way, be influenced by a conflicted opinion. Nothing at all wrong with financial interests, if disclosed. The problem is that this suspicion is often stated without putting a name to it or without evidence, which can lead to folks questioning most any opinion. People can certainly say anything they want-I'd never suggest otherwise- but bare allegations create more heat than light and serves only to confuse the great unwashed consumers like me, if anyone cares.

I have posted recounting my recent (very good) experience with upgrading my speakers because that might be useful to someone else. I've also recounted how good the buying experience was to try to make a broader point-for many consumers, who you buy from may be almost as important as what you buy. I think a relationship with a trusted advisor with deep expertise is a better way to go for many consumers than simply going from place to place buying boxes. And I think lots of people in the business who would fit the bill are on WBF. I have received no money, favors, or any sort of accommodation of any kind for expressing that opinion which is entirely my own. I'm checking my mail every day for my 50% off this is fraud, but alas, the postman only brings me bills and retirement home advertisements.

At any rate, nothing is perfect but I'm a WBF fan. Thanks to the people who run it and thanks to those who post thoughtful, interesting commentary.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Discussions often turn political with the inevitable results. God (and Ron) save us from that fate.

Thank you. I'm proud of the fact that WBF is a politics-free zone!

 

[Al M.]

I'm reluctant to add my thoughts because I doubt anyone cares and I'm just someone who likes good gear and good music, don't claim to know what others should think sounds best. I have spent a fair amount of coin supporting those making a living in this hobby, so that's something. I like to learn about this stuff - I find it fascinating. I like WBF-lots of people to learn from, sometimes you have to cut through the haughty part, but that's okay, they make interesting points. I admit, I don't understand how folks can get emotional over what someone thinks sounds the best to their ears as long as I'm free to choose what's best for my ears. But even the hurled barbs over vinyl vs digital or some such can be entertaining in a WWF kind of way, and there are intelligent points to learn from in those threads.

I'm on another unnamed but easily guessed forum that's completely different. Some smart people there too, but the discussions go from 0 to mean as a biting sow in a heartbeat, and none of it clever. What they lack in originality of insults they make up for in volume. Discussions often turn political with the inevitable results. God (and Ron) save us from that fate. WBF has more wheat, less chaff. I think it is well moderated and mostly populated by gentlemen passionate and knowledgeable about this hobby. The fact that some make a living at it is fine-a plus actually-as long as all financial entanglements are disclosed.

It comes up occasionally that there are undisclosed financial interests on the part of some who champion certain brands. If true, that's wrong, way wrong. Because someone might, in even a small way, be influenced by a conflicted opinion. Nothing at all wrong with financial interests, if disclosed. The problem is that this suspicion is often stated without putting a name to it or without evidence, which can lead to folks questioning most any opinion. People can certainly say anything they want-I'd never suggest otherwise- but bare allegations create more heat than light and serves only to confuse the great unwashed consumers like me, if anyone cares.

I have posted recounting my recent (very good) experience with upgrading my speakers because that might be useful to someone else. I've also recounted how good the buying experience was to try to make a broader point-for many consumers, who you buy from may be almost as important as what you buy. I think a relationship with a trusted advisor with deep expertise is a better way to go for many consumers than simply going from place to place buying boxes. And I think lots of people in the business who would fit the bill are on WBF. I have received no money, favors, or any sort of accommodation of any kind for expressing that opinion which is entirely my own. I'm checking my mail every day for my 50% off this is fraud, but alas, the postman only brings me bills and retirement home advertisements.

At any rate, nothing is perfect but I'm a WBF fan. Thanks to the people who run it and thanks to those who post thoughtful, interesting commentary.

What a great post!

 

[rob]

Elliot, do you have any examples you can share with us?

10 or so years ago, when I joined the forum, it seemed like a place for hobbyists to share their knowledge, experience, and joy of the hobby. That was before it was really commercialized.

Now there are manufacturers discussing technology on people’s system threads, denigrating some stuff and promoting their own. There are dealers posting photos and stories of their latest installations. I see a lot of marketing and promotion and less sharing from hobbyists.

The tone has certainly changed. I do not think there is any going back. I’m not sure it is progress.

Why all the pussy footing around.
Examples off the top of my head.
Lampizator.
Zellaron. (was Wilson)
Grid protector thingy.
CMS Center stage
Westminster Labs (was Lamm)
Taiko Audio.
Master sound cables

To a lesser extent
Aries Cerat
Wadax
Van den Hul carts (was flavour of the month for a bit)
Von Schweirt speakers.
DCS .
Dartzeel (for a period)
And on & on.
I’t should be quite obvious as to the reasons why, I’m fine with it as I’m not a dealer and know when to apply the proverbial grain of salt.
Also, easy to avoid such content and follow posts and members that align and share similar goals in audio reproduction.

 

[Alrainbow]

Of course it is rex , its political audio views .
I use headphones daily at my desk , start a thread on that and see how little anyone cares .
Each forums has a task and this forums does this well putting aside the onslaught of mentions of certain name brands .
Smart people who do answer most times , one just needs to spark there fancy a bit.
I do think Elliot has been willing to help and definitely take push back too.
I belong to many forums some pure DIY forums , not just DIY forum .
it's looked at downwards if it's purely about sound period you get crickets.
some on personal audio are very combative and don't dare mention a paying member in a bad light . Then the admins blow things up .
Can't say they do this here often and when they do I get it .
I think here we get both the diy and sound it's just at a very high financial cost hahaha.

 

[Verastarr]

Interesting conversation. I feel that its disingenuous for a long time dealer to make a post miffed about privately held forums being biased. In one word, DUH. We all know this and we work around it. I would guess if the bias was in the OP's favor, all would be fine. Since the OP seems to be about full disclosure, perhaps dealers should divulge what media influencers or customers benefit financially from each dealer. I know some of them are on dealer payroll. This way we are aware of posts or videos coming from certain folks so we know they are biased. Its never going to end well, so its just best to understand that the landscape is cooked, and proceed accordingly. No big deal. Mind your own business and go about your hobby or for some of us, our career. I simply know from experience when my cup is overflowing, I have no time to look at others. My point being, this post seemingly stems from financial concerns of not being "Inside" the perceived golden circle. This forum belongs to certain individuals and they are free to favor whomever they want. Its really nothing new. If we go to other forums, at least 2 are owned by dealers.. so of COURSE they are going to pimp the brands they sell.. Its just good marketing. Just listen to your seller and get a vibe for the PERSON... forget the brands and the gear for a second. Make a judgement call on the human. Buy from whom you trust and resonate with. Its a relationship. Big stores, advertisement everywhere, 5 rooms at the shows mean nothing other than someone is marketing hard. Same with the ads on the forums. Same with many discussions on the forums which one should look at as potential advertisement. The legacy high end audio market has shrunk, and the relics of the industry are getting rabid for the same buyers. Due to this, marketing and potential bias will get stronger and stronger. Just ignore it and keep on listening to the music and keep your friendships strong..

 

[gleeds]

Interesting conversation. I feel that its disingenuous for a long time dealer to make a post miffed about privately held forums being biased. In one word, DUH. We all know this and we work around it. I would guess if the bias was in the OP's favor, all would be fine. Since the OP seems to be about full disclosure, perhaps dealers should divulge what media influencers or customers benefit financially from each dealer. I know some of them are on dealer payroll. This way we are aware of posts or videos coming from certain folks so we know they are biased. Its never going to end well, so its just best to understand that the landscape is cooked, and proceed accordingly. No big deal. Mind your own business and go about your hobby or for some of us, our career. I simply know from experience when my cup is overflowing, I have no time to look at others. My point being, this post seemingly stems from financial concerns of not being "Inside" the perceived golden circle. This forum belongs to certain individuals and they are free to favor whomever they want. Its really nothing new. If we go to other forums, at least 2 are owned by dealers.. so of COURSE they are going to pimp the brands they sell.. Its just good marketing. Just listen to your seller and get a vibe for the PERSON... forget the brands and the gear for a second. Make a judgement call on the human. Buy from whom you trust and resonate with. Its a relationship. Big stores, advertisement everywhere, 5 rooms at the shows mean nothing other than someone is marketing hard. Same with the ads on the forums. Same with many discussions on the forums which one should look at as potential advertisement. The legacy high end audio market has shrunk, and the relics of the industry are getting rabid for the same buyers. Due to this, marketing and potential bias will get stronger and stronger. Just ignore it and keep on listening to the music and keep your friendships strong..

Mike, hello. Please add to your affiliations as the debonair host of your own YouTube channel as well
You're right, it's about getting closer to the music, and there are many paths to doing so. I would argue today there are more and better choices than at any time since I started in this industry, albeit, as with most things, the cost of entry has gotten higher

 

[adyc]

Why all the pussy footing around.
Examples off the top of my head.
Lampizator.
Zellaron. (was Wilson)
Grid protector thingy.
CMS Center stage
Westminster Labs (was Lamm)
Taiko Audio.
Master sound cables

To a lesser extent
Aries Cerat
Wadax
Van den Hul carts (was flavour of the month for a bit)
Von Schweirt speakers.
DCS .
Dartzeel (for a period)
And on & on.
I’t should be quite obvious as to the reasons why, I’m fine with it as I’m not a dealer and know when to apply the proverbial grain of salt.
Also, easy to avoid such content and follow posts and members that align and share similar goals in audio reproduction.

I think it is a bit unfair to Takio. They only have two big threads: Extreme and Olympus. There are no other threads which owners or dealers promoting their products. But I did find one very strange post from an owner of Olympus recently in the Olympus thread. By his own admission, he seldom posts. His post is about his new Olympus has some problems which was ultimately fixed by the dealer with the help of Takio. OP said the customer service is extraordinary and recommend them highly. It really looks like marketing. Fixing a new machine with the help of dealer is nothing extraordinary. It is minimum standard for such an expensive equipment. I wouldn’t expect anything less. I don’t understand the intention of his post.

 

[rob]

I think it is a bit unfair to Takio. They only have two big threads: Extreme and Olympus. There are no other threads which owners or dealers promoting their products. But I did find one very strange post from an owner of Olympus recently in the Olympus thread. By his own admission, he seldom posts. His post is about his new Olympus has some problems which was ultimately fixed by the dealer with the help of Takio. OP said the customer service is extraordinary and recommend them highly. It really looks like marketing. Fixing a new machine with the help of dealer is nothing extraordinary. It is minimum standard for such an expensive equipment. I wouldn’t expect anything less. I don’t understand the intention of his post.

Fair call, my post wasn't intended as a criticism. This stuff happens on pretty much all forums, no matter the product.

 

[tima]

It comes up occasionally that there are undisclosed financial interests on the part of some who champion certain brands. If true, that's wrong, way wrong. Because someone might, in even a small way, be influenced by a conflicted opinion. Nothing at all wrong with financial interests, if disclosed. The problem is that this suspicion is often stated without putting a name to it or without evidence, which can lead to folks questioning most any opinion. People can certainly say anything they want-I'd never suggest otherwise- but bare allegations create more heat than light and serves only to confuse the great unwashed consumers like me, if anyone cares.

When I was last at university, employees could give themselves whatever title they wanted on their ID cards, realistic or not -- there is some of that going on here.

I think that the recent WBF identification of industry members under their avatar is definitely a step in the right direction for disclosure..

 

[Kingrex]

New product releases were also popular. I do not see much of that anymore with speakers like Magico and Wilson, or cables, or tuturntables.

I agree but maybe for a different reason. Whenever I see a new product. Pretty much any, its a groan for me of How Much This Time. Gee, a new amp for $145,000. A new speaker for $60,000 that really punches above its price. A cable for, if you have to ask, your not our customer. Who wants to read, chime in and grow that thread. Only the very select that can afford it.

Mike has a point about the level of gear and conversions here. It is the forum for Unobtanium equipment. And I find a part of the quest to make such a system fun. Or I shouls say, punch up to that level.on a bidget.
Generally WBF is not the place to discuss a speaker that cost $6000 and really does punch above its price. Or a class D amp for $2450 that is hard for anyone to discern from a $145,000 amp. There are forums for that. I do wonder how much traffic they get?

Maybe to a peripheral edge of Elliots point, If I or anyone compared their $2400 class D monoblocks to some well known amps and concluded, along with other listeners, the inexpensive amp was all the expensive one, and more in some regards. And that thread took off. Maybe the thread owner would be told to knock if off. I don't know????

The DIY forums are much more open and full of learning. Of course. Its DIY. Not Open Your Wallet and (insert hyperbolic words). There are some amazing engineer that have helped me in my DIY.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike has a point about the level of gear and conversions here. It is the forum for Unobtanium equipment.

when i mention heavy hitters and serious conversations my meaning has little to do with the price of gear. it can peripherally be associated with high dollar gear, but is more about serious system building intent and knowledge about and hunger to explore performance boundaries. where the best possible music reproduction can be found, the best possible approaches. i respect that it might seem to be about only big bucks but it's just not.

some of our most involved members have relatively modest costing systems, or no system. but their passion and knowledge is heavy hitting. their depth of knowledge and decades long efforts to be seriously involved in the hobby and this forum carries the energy forward and is what the forum is all about. it's what the observers from the outside value and what is unique to WBF. we have a lot of contributors who have their own unique voice.

sure; there are members who do have very expensive systems and play at the tip top. but that is not the value of the forum, just part of the bigger picture.

 

[sbo6]

I said what I said. The information is there for all who want to read it and make up there own minds. I have gotten a lot of calls and private emails all but one in support.

I am not going to have a discussion with every single person that disagrees or questions my statements. This is till the USA and I and YOU have the right to express your self and to foster your own beliefs. The regular dozen can post whatever they choose.
The rules here require full disclosure. I have, and almost every other dealer, distributor and manufacturer has. I am a dealer, I am a distributor, I have posted my products, I do express my opinions, I do sell stuff that is who I am and that will not change. I do not get paid to say anything. I do not get free products, long term loans, accommodations above and beyond industry standards for demo's. What i do is live by the rules.
This has nothing to do with any product or product line. I have said nothing about any of them.
The choice to read, listen and study the information is yours and yours alone.
I appreciate you attention to this matter,
OUT

BTW I will leave when and If I want to.

You created a post and now you're saying you're not going to have a discussion?

If you wanted no feedback or dialogue, then you should have stated that. By default, you're your own worst enemy.

 

[sbo6]

when i mention heavy hitters and serious conversations my meaning has little to do with the price of gear. it can peripherally be associated with high dollar gear, but is more about serious system building intent and knowledge about and hunger to explore performance boundaries. where the best possible music reproduction can be found, the best possible approaches. i respect that it might seem to be about only big bucks but it's just not.

some of our most involved members have relatively modest costing systems, or no system. but their passion and knowledge is heavy hitting. their depth of knowledge and decades long efforts to be seriously involved in the hobby and this forum carries the energy forward and is what the forum is all about. it's what the observers from the outside value and what is unique to WBF. we have a lot of contributors who have their own unique voice.

sure; there are members who do have very expensive systems and play at the tip top. but that is not the value of the forum, just part of the bigger picture.

I would add - many folks with high $ systems have vast years of experience (component over component climbing the ladder) to reach the level they're at. It's not about snobbery, it's about a collective experience to help folks make as informed decisions as possible for best audio experiences.