Has the focus of the forum shifted? Is it the marketing, promotion and cheerleading arm of selected companies? Has advertising changed the landscape?
- Thread starter Elliot G.
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For starters, the paragraph you cited was merely a summary of what I thought Eliot was trying to convey in his op, which, if I correctly interpreted, for his sentiment, I whole heartedly agree. But I’ll refrain from making any retaliatory comments regarding your demeanor.
My view is that there is an appearance of impropriety which to me undermines the credibility of our hobby. As someone who likes to visit “WBF” I find it insulting to a certain degree.
My view is just my view, and is not an attack on anyone. I really could care less about any one else’s financial dealings.
OTOH, I would hope and expect that industry affiliated people get discounts, accommodations, etc., just like in any other so long as there is transparency. I find it quite alarming though that some, even in this thread suggest that none are appropriated and that it “doesn’t happen”. It just adds fuel to the fire.
As for “evidence”, I think that enough people have already chimed in on this and other similarly related threads/posts for you to acknowledge that there is an appearance of impropriety and as such the onus is on the perpetrator to clarify and clear up any misunderstandings if it causes discomfort.
Making statements like “prove it” or “where is the evidence” is only a distraction in these situations and doesn’t serve anyone, especially the ones asking for it.
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It's not a distraction. It's a legit request after allegations have been made. In no way did I ever suggest that it doesn't ever happen either. Those are your words, not mine.
Tom
Tom
Can you agree that in the times that it does happen and there is no transparency, that in those cases it opens up the appearance of some sort of impropriety going on?
Do you think that it is unreasonable for people to see the subject matter of this thread as such?
Do you think that it is unreasonable for people to see the subject matter of this thread as such?
This whole subject strikes me as misguided. Do some of you really think Steve is running some kind of operation here at WBF? Why not accuse him having Mob ties while you’re at it?It just doesn’t pass the smell test.
It’s important not to conflate two different topics that have been discussed in this thread. One is the issue of potential conflicts of interest with reviewers, etc.. that arise from financial accommodations between viewers and vendors. Much broader than WBF
The other, and original point seemed to do with certain threads on WBF where particular products were discussed. Those threads seem to me to be nothing more than a discussion among people who are enthusiastic about these products or interested in what they will bring to the table. I’m certainly not a WBF insider so maybe I don’t understand how it works. It seems to me that these threads go on only as long as there is a critical mass of people interested in exchanging ideas on the topic. I don’t understand how that indicates “favoritism.” Seems pretty typical of an Internet forum to me.
It also seems only fair that if someone is making an accusation of some impropriety that the burden of proof is on the accuser. That’s how it usually works.
There is a big difference between accusing someone of impropriety and the appearance of impropriety.
Please let this distinction prevail.
That’s a fair point.
What is it that appears improper? I’m not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand. As best I can see, these are threads, sort of off in a corner of WBF, that have generated interest in certain products. Seems like there are a lot of threads like that and the only remarkable thing is that one of them has generated quite a lot of interest, but if people weren’t interested, they wouldn’t continue to post and it would die a natural death. Absent some real evidence that someone is getting something of value to post positive opinions, I’m having a hard time understanding how these threads are different from any other thread discussing a product.
So, I really am curious to understand what appears improper?
Yes and no. Sure, each one of us has our own opinion, but data analysis can yield majorities leading to objective conclusions.
For example, if almost any of us drive home after listening to their car stereo and then listen to the system in their signature afterwards, one can likely conclude that the home system is better than the car system. Feedback can be solicited to confirm as such. the data shows one is conclusively and objectively better.
Subjectivity comes into play more so in our more comparative systems, but extremes will lead to objective results in most cases.
The fact that no manufacturers, dealers, or anyone involved ever stand up in these circumstances and simply say that there was or wasn’t accommodations involved.
None is willing to go on record.
They play hardball when the ball is in their court but shift to casual, fun, hobby, when it’s the other way around.
not how the web or hifi forums work. at all. talk is cheap. and accusations get clicks. and there can be the talk of proof, but there is never proof. since it does not exist.
how can the community compel a finger pointer to deliver proof? impossible. the target has to live with it. just how it goes. and if the target tries to answer then it only gets worse. cynics love any sort of defense. time for some pilling on.
every serious dollar transaction involves a discount. or inflated trade-in. every one. and many involve a recommendation or referral from another satisfied customer. so where are the lines? and where is the myth of quid pro quo? it's kinda baked in to some degree. what is a good customer discount? and what is more than that?
higher price hifi is a luxury marketplace and full of relationships. the community is what makes it more fun, but also involves lots of feelings and finger pointing. especially when influencers have a financial stake in their results, and dealers and manufacturers are part of the narrative. so a thread like this goes crazy and there is not bottom or end to it since it's just part of the noise. not going away any time soon. so get over it.
i'm leaving out the whole reviewer accommodation discount part as even though people get their panties in a bunch. it is what it is and i think it's fine. it's not really an issue and not part of what i am talking about.
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Exactly. But these conclusions are not absolutes.
In the framework of a community that can be represented by the users supplying the feedback. Statistics and probability have rules.
I do not feel so optimist. The number of individuals participating actively in WBF is too low and the high-end has so many variables that even extremes can't be proved as objective.
It shouldn’t be the decision of the person benefiting from the accomodation as to what disclosure is required. And if readers should just assume an accomodation has occurred because the practice is so common, then why not state what the discount from MSRP is and let me, the reader decide whether that matters or not? Consider my panties twisted.
Nice post. The OP asked us to read the thread and form our own opinion. I do not see any evidence of actual wrong doing and the accusation is vague at best. The burden of proof has certainly not been met in my opinion.
I have been accused of being overly enthusiastic about certain products that I have in my system, even a shill for a dealer, a guru, and was even accused of being a member of his cult. Such unfounded claims are simply nonsense. Many of us come here to learn and to share our enthusiasm for things about the hobby that we have recently discovered for ourselves. It is all in good fun in the hope of creating some kind of convivial atmosphere around this fascinating hobby. This guru/dealer friend of mine once told me that the best thing about the forum and the hobby for him has been the people he has met along the way.
Regarding the appearance of impropriety or conflict, I am for some standard disclosure and then each of us can factor that into his own decision making process. Most if it is basically entertainment. Some of it is valuable information. We make of it what we will. I think Steve has created a very nice forum. I wish him and the forum continued success.
Yes, Mike, all these aspects must exist in the high-end - it is a business and they are part of it. We will probably see the just the tips of the iceberg, they are not relevant to my personnel hobby activity.
I feel that Eliot posts were openly criticizing a style of posting, not particular members. He expected members to comment on it, what people started doing, unfortunately a few particular posts triggered in a focused, that later become personnel, path and destroyed any hope of a fair debate. A pity for the forum.
These kind of discussions are needed in a forum - the internet changed a lot the way we communicate in the high-end. I have been a member of rec.audio.highend-audio many decades ago and remember similar discussions in that usenet group. Fortunately posting rules changed a lot since than. If we applied the very strict posting guidelines of that period to WBF 90% of our posts would be deleted by moderators. Curious people can see it at - surely with the help pf ChatGPT, too lazy to carry the search myself.
https://www.usenetarchives.com/view...c3MDJAYmlnZm9vdC5jb20+&utm_source=chatgpt.com
Again my personnel opinion, but forum owners have a word to say on current forum targets and allowances. IMO there is a clear uncertainty between owner, administrator and moderator roles, that becomes more evident by the partial obsolescence of the WBF TOS. All IMO, YMMV.
BTW, I feel that the opinions of more recent members on these matters would be welcome.
Mike,
Indulge me if you will…..
The dealerships you ran were all Honda, yes?
I recall you saying once in an old/unrelated thread something along the lines that you were not permitted to drive onto the dealership lot on a consistent basis, in any vehicle other than a Honda.
Does my memory serve well?
Would you explain the reason for this?
Indulge me if you will…..
The dealerships you ran were all Honda, yes?
I recall you saying once in an old/unrelated thread something along the lines that you were not permitted to drive onto the dealership lot on a consistent basis, in any vehicle other than a Honda.
Does my memory serve well?
Would you explain the reason for this?
....... HONDA .
It would be like the Mc donalds manager bringing Burger king inside for lunch .
It would be like the Mc donalds manager bringing Burger king inside for lunch
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how do you know what you are competing against if you don't explore the competition?....... HONDA .
It would be like the Mc donalds manager bringing Burger king inside for lunch
upper management within the dealership are typically, as part of their pay plan, given a new Honda to drive. covered by dealership insurance and dealership maintenance. they pay taxes on that monthly based on an IRS schedule. this is quite normal nationwide. those accepting this 'deal' are expected to drive that vehicle to and from work and for any dealership business and it's important that they use that vehicle so the dealership insurance is part of the use. some decline and then avoid the tax or prefer to drive their own vehicle and maybe negotiate a monthly fee in lieu of the demo plan. those with new demo's may park it in spaces close to the dealership. and those vehicles might be used for customer demos or errands. those choosing their own vehicle must park where the other employees park.
as far as having to drive the same make; no, that is not something that is normal as a rule. for myself as the GM i was careful to set the right example. it was not any rule but just common sense. and if i owned a honda myself i would only sell it back to the dealership to be sold, i would never retail a used Honda myself personally. part of the GM picture.
specifically for myself as the General Manager for most of my 43 years at this dealership i only owned Honda's. but in 2016 i did buy a 2016 Porsche 911 C2S. it was scratching a life-long itch. and i was sensitive to not driving it to work in the sense of not wanting to show off. but some of my techs and salespeople wanted to see it and so i did check with my dealer owner and he was fine with me driving it to work here and there and still parking near the dealership. but i only did it when i was going to be there for a couple hours, not all day. i had been at the dealership for 36 years at that point and so the crew was supportive of my dream car. only kept the CS2 for 18 months, moved on then back to Honda's.
in general the dealership certainly was sensitive to upper management driving Honda's. but Honda does not make large trucks, or Jeeps, or some other specialty cars. and car people like their cars, are passionate about cars, and so no way can you apply any requirement to do anything about that.
sorry to get so deep into this issue as i've probably overkilled it, but it's not anything simple to describe. i had to manage this issue myself.
10-20-30 years ago things were much looser as far as demo's and the rules and taxes. these days dealerships need all i's dotted and 't's' crossed all the time. lots of risk with demo's. dealerships are now medium size businesses, with appropriate controls and rules.
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