Has the focus of the forum shifted? Is it the marketing, promotion and cheerleading arm of selected companies? Has advertising changed the landscape?

[pk_LA]

Unless I missed it, has S Williams been crickets on this thread?

If this whole thread is, indeed, meant to "target" one person, then that's incredibly inappropriate. I doubt that it is. I am sure that Elliott has both the professionalism and the chutzpah to confront an individual on his own. In other words, I am quite sure Elliott needn't gather a posse.

 

[Iamrael]

My take is that this thread was righteously started by Elliot to get feedback from members to find out if they (also) sense that there is a bias on the part of “WBF” to
start new threads/keep existing threads active, and promoting products whenever it “fits into the narrative” that have been slanted by accommodations given from a few manufacturers.
It is my humble opinion that it is extremely unethical for administrators under any circumstances (whether they are given “treats” or not) to show a preference toward any product or manufacturer when (other) dealers and manufacturers, etc., must pay them for the privilege to simply mention the name of a product for which they are associated.
It’s just so wrong!
Yeah, I know….other audio forum owners/administrators do it, but “WBF” is special/different/better?
It reminds me of the sports betting scheme going on now in some ways.
I get that this is a hobby and we all like to participate, but with power comes responsibility.
Why not just take on a pen name? (A little too late for that)

 

[treitz3]

The way I see it, Steve has already been found guilty of a crime that never took place. The accusations are unfounded and it honestly puts the man who started this forum to talk about his passion between a rock and a hard place. It has already been evidenced that if he keeps out of this discussion, he is guilty. If he responds, then the mudslinging starts. It's a lose lose situation for him, so why would he even bother to get involved? There has yet to be any proof at all that Steve is guilty of what he is being accused of here. Not one shred of evidence. Only accusations that are coming from a select few.

How about even one of the accusers come up with some proof? Any proof at all. I dare them. None of the members here will ever see any because there is none. This is nothing more than a smear campaign to make the man look bad...and for what? I, for one am tired of this. The man started this forum to talk about his life long passion. One that we all share. THAT'S his crime?

Some folks should feel ashamed of themselves for spreading these blatant lies. I know much more than what I am saying here but this has got to stop and now. Either show your proof (which you can't) or kindly shut your flaps about this. Enough is enough. I have even heard about particular (unnamed for now) member here throwing around a malicious rumor that Steve, Zellaton and Schenerzinger have a deal for Steve to get products for free, in trade for positive reviews. That is a total and complete lie, yet they continue to spread that information as if it is fact. I have been privy to seeing some real evil in this industry over the years and this is no different. It's unethical and pure evil in my eyes.

The thing is, this not only smears Steve's reputation, but that of other companies as well. If one wants to "read between the lines", just ask yourself who profits off of that kind of smear? That's some of the evil I speak of. I'll just leave that where it is and allow you to ponder over that one.

At the end of the day, what I see is that someone is upset that he is an advertiser and his threads don't get as much recognition as some other threads. We have no control over that. This is a member driven forum. Some threads are simply successful and take on a life of their own, and with others, this turns out not to be the case.

In very basic layman's terms, it is akin to a child throwing a temper tantrum because his sandbox isn't the most popular, in order to get more attention pointed toward his sandbox.

I can say with full certainty that Steve is just heartbroken over this whole situation. His entire purpose with originally starting this forum was to have one place, where manufacturers, dealers, distributors, designers, industry insiders and members could all have a place, where everyone could talk about the one thing that pretty much sums up the one passion Steve has had his entire life. Audio. The pursuit, the journey, the discoveries and sharing the happiness it brings along the way.

The lies need to stop though. Enough is enough.

Tom

 

[Iamrael]

First one to speak is a monkey for a week!

 

[pk_LA]

The way I see it, Steve has already been found guilty of a crime that never took place. The accusations are unfounded and it honestly puts the man who started this forum to talk about his passion between a rock and a hard place. It has already been evidenced that if he keeps out of this discussion, he is guilty. If he responds, then the mudslinging starts. It's a lose lose situation for him, so why would he even bother to get involved? There has yet to be any proof at all that Steve is guilty of what he is being accused of here. Not one shred of evidence. Only accusations that are coming from a select few.

How about even one of the accusers come up with some proof? Any proof at all. I dare them. None of the members here will ever see any because there is none. This is nothing more than a smear campaign to make the man look bad...and for what? I, for one am tired of this. The man started this forum to talk about his life long passion. One that we all share. THAT'S his crime?

Some folks should feel ashamed of themselves for spreading these blatant lies. I know much more than what I am saying here but this has got to stop and now. Either show your proof (which you can't) or kindly shut your flaps about this. Enough is enough. I have even heard about particular (unnamed for now) member here throwing around a malicious rumor that Steve, Zellaton and Schenerzinger have a deal for Steve to get products for free, in trade for positive reviews. That is a total and complete lie, yet they continue to spread that information as if it is fact. I have been privy to seeing some real evil in this industry over the years and this is no different. It's unethical and pure evil in my eyes.

The thing is, this not only smears Steve's reputation, but that of other companies as well. If one wants to "read between the lines", just ask yourself who profits off of that kind of smear? That's some of the evil I speak of. I'll just leave that where it is and allow you to ponder over that one.

At the end of the day, what I see is that someone is upset that he is an advertiser and his threads don't get as much recognition as some other threads. We have no control over that. This is a member driven forum. Some threads are simply successful and take on a life of their own, and with others, this turns out not to be the case.

In very basic layman's terms, it is akin to a child throwing a temper tantrum because his sandbox isn't the most popular, in order to get more attention pointed toward his sandbox.

I can say with full certainty that Steve is just heartbroken over this whole situation. His entire purpose with originally starting this forum was to have one place, where manufacturers, dealers, distributors, designers, industry insiders and members could all have a place, where everyone could talk about the one thing that pretty much sums up the one passion Steve has had his entire life. Audio. The pursuit, the journey, the discoveries and sharing the happiness it brings along the way.

The lies need to stop though. Enough is enough.

Tom

I don't always agree with Steve and I find some of his posts hyperbolic. But, I do believe that his posts reflect his genuine point of view and experience with the various gear in discussion. I absolutely do not believe he'd ever advocate for product he didn't feel strongly about. With that said, I don't feel that any single voice on WBF represents some kind of absolute truth (despite some characters on here sounding such).

I feel that some fair points and reasonable questions have been raised in this thread. I also feel that they have been reasonably responded to.

It would be a shame if Steve or anyone else intimated here were quelled. It is the variety of opinions, from passionate to analytical, that make WBF special.

So, if you read this, Steve, please, carry on!

 

[Ron Resnick]

But do you think that reviewers are more likely to be even more positive in their review when they factor in the 50% reduction? That seems like human nature.

1) Accomodation discount is much less unethical than long-term loan.

2) Even at a big discount a lot of components still are a great deal of money, and the reviewer is still paying a lot of money out of his/her own pocket.

3) Since reviewers can get almost everything at accommodation discount the playing field is effectively leveled once again across manufacturers. What a reviewer chooses actually to purchase -- even at an accommodation discount -- is, by far, the most probative and important information I ever learn from a review.

 

[Kbh57]

1) Accomodation discount is much less unethical than long-term loan.

2) Even at a big discount a lot of components still are a great deal of money, and the reviewer is still paying a lot of money out of his/her own pocket.

3) Since reviewers can get almost everything at accommodation discount the playing field is effectively leveled once again across manufacturers. What a reviewer chooses actually to purchase -- even at an accommodation discount -- is, by far, the most probative and important information I ever learn from a review.

I agree with #3-money, as in a purchase, talks. I simply believe that whether its a loan, accommodation pricing, whatever, if the reviewer gets anything not generally available to consumers, it should be disclosed. I don't think any of it is unethical if its disclosed because consumers of the review can accord it whatever weight they choose based on all the information. I can't really think of a noble reason for nondisclosure.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I simply believe that whether its a loan, accommodation pricing, whatever, if the reviewer gets anything not generally available to consumers, it should be disclosed. I don't think any of it is unethical if its disclosed because consumers of the review can accord it whatever weight they choose based on all the information. I can't really think of a noble reason for nondisclosure.

I completely agree. In these kinds of situations and issues full and fair disclosure is the correct answer.

 

[microstrip]

I don't always agree with Steve and I find some of his posts hyperbolic. But, I do believe that his posts reflect his genuine point of view and experience with the various gear in discussion. I absolutely do not believe he'd ever advocate for product he didn't feel strongly about. With that said, I don't feel that any single voice on WBF represents some kind of absolute truth (despite some characters on here sounding such).

I feel that some fair points and reasonable questions have been raised in this thread. I also feel that they have been reasonably responded to.

It would be a shame if Steve or anyone else intimated here were quelled. It is the variety of opinions, from passionate to analytical, that make WBF special.

So, if you read this, Steve, please, carry on!

I fully support your post, however I think we should use this thread to address the equity of treatment of the industry members in this forum - IMO the concern of Eliot in post #1.

BTW, as I said before, I am always happy with high-end hyperbole, that I feel natural in this hobby, but I am much less happy when the hyperbole police becomes selective.

 

[tima]

At the end of the day, what I see is that someone is upset that he is an advertiser and his threads don't get as much recognition as some other threads.

That pretty much sums it up.

 

[tima]

1) Accomodation discount is much less unethical than long-term loan.

Who are you to judge?

 

[caesar]

1) Accomodation discount is much less unethical than long-term loan.

2) Even at a big discount a lot of components still are a great deal of money, and the reviewer is still paying a lot of money out of his/her own pocket.

3) Since reviewers can get almost everything at accommodation discount the playing field is effectively leveled once again across manufacturers. What a reviewer chooses actually to purchase -- even at an accommodation discount -- is, by far, the most probative and important information I ever learn from a review.

Why is it unethical, Ron, if they are transparent about the loan and transparently disclosing all discounts?

As long as the guys are honest about practices (such as protecting mofi fraud) and honest, thorough reviews - meaning comparisons and complete and truthful contrasts to draw out differences about products, it's all good. But if they are not, that's where ethics become gray...

 

[caesar]

As a paying member, an advertiser, a contributor, a dealer and a distributor I want to know when the forum became the marketing and cheerleading arm of certain selected companies? I have no issues with people talking about their products, their tech etc. but it seems more and more evident that there is more happening here. It seems to me and others I have talked with that the Forum is favoring certain companies and products over others. This is fine personally IMO , we all the right to like what we like, however when the Forum is used to market one product over others, I believe this is a bridge to far.

Hey Elliot, life is not fair. Here's an approach from a rational perspective :If you can't beat them, join them!

If your customer or prospect doesn't like your wadax, recommend a taiko and/ or lampizator. If they don't like your Gobel, recommend Zellaton. If they don't like your cable, recommend a Schnerdzinger or Masterbuilt. Or whatever the house brands are, as I don't really check those threads.

Tell them if the guys online like it, it must be good.

Just charge a fair referral fee, and all Rational parties should benefit.

Just please disclose what those discounts are - transparency is key!

Again, a purely rational perspective to maximize your revenues.

Good Luck!

PS. I still you should write a book about adventures in audio.

 

[tima]

Why is it unethical, Ron, if they are transparent about the loan and transparently disclosing all discounts?

Let me talk for a moment about accommodation pricing, what you call a discount.. It is available to any industry affiliate but it is the manufacturer or distributor who grants it and establishes a price. Accommodation purchase is available on any product, not just a review product.for which accommodation is offered. edit: For the three publications I've written for, all three require permission be granted by the publisher in order to request an accommodation purchase. You can assume any product an industry affiliate claims in his system may be an accommodation purchase. Imo that is all the disclosure needed.

All: Who is responsible for what you believe? What is the great fear? That you (anyone) will be deceived? Raise your hand if you have been deceived by a reviewer because he made an accommodation purchase?

 

[Rt66indierock]

Let me talk for a moment about accommodation pricing, what you call a discount.. It is available to any industry affiliate but it is the manufacturer or distributor who grants it and establishes a price. Accommodation purchase is available on any product, not just a review product.for which accommodation is offered. edit: For the three publications I've written for, all three require permission be granted by the publisher in order to request an accommodation purchase. You can assume any product an industry affiliate claims in his system may be an accommodation purchase. Imo that is all the disclosure needed.

All: Who is responsible for what you believe? What is the great fear? That you (anyone) will be deceived? Raise your hand if you have been deceived by a reviewer because he made an accommodation purchase?

I have some housekeeping to do but here goes. Who is responsible for what I believe in audio. Tektronix engineers who taught me audio as a teenager. James Russell, one of the inventors of digital audio. Several professors at Reed College were helpful showing me how to analyze music. A neighbor up the street Glen Finch showed me how to be a consultant so I could consult on the pro side of audio. And my older sister who was working on her PhD in musicology and had a very good sounding audio system based on the original Maggies.

What is the greatest fear? That my successors will succeed when I said in 2016 that I want to swing the pendulum back to 50-50 measurements and listening.

As for reviewers in the United States there are three classes of reviewers. Those that support MQA and should be heavily criticized for supporting it. Those who didn’t like it and stayed quiet because of industry and hobby politics. Pointing out one the intractable problems in high end audio. Then there are those who were too out of touch to recognize the danger of MQA. A bunch of folks siloed.

 

[ctydwn]

If this whole thread is, indeed, meant to "target" one person, then that's incredibly inappropriate. I doubt that it is. I am sure that Elliott has both the professionalism and the chutzpah to confront an individual on his own. In other words, I am quite sure Elliott needn't gather a posse.

I think that would be normal assumption for a credible person with a backbone as you say, but not convinced (would love to hear about a true one on one conversation, but sure doesn’t sound like it) but just imho i think Elliot threw a hand grenade and ran. He is upset because Steve got excited about a new amp brand (he has not provided any evidence other than patronizing ‘you can read it as well i can’; no other examples - is there after 19 pages? - some other backroom deal with someone else?) and throws out back handed cowardly allegations.

And then indirectly results in some uber posters questioning wbf founders and moderators of affiliations etc. Meanwhile the guy we are all most indebted to for creating this forum gets his name dragged around without any evidence of anything wrong? have lost all respect for the OP bc of this bs thread and the silent smugness. wbf does their best imho, no evidence of ill doing (what am i missing again) and their team works their tails off to keep an ongoing, respectful dialogue to maintain this space for us to learn and share.

 

[caesar]

Let me talk for a moment about accommodation pricing, what you call a discount.. It is available to any industry affiliate but it is the manufacturer or distributor who grants it and establishes a price. Accommodation purchase is available on any product, not just a review product.for which accommodation is offered. edit: For the three publications I've written for, all three require permission be granted by the publisher in order to request an accommodation purchase. You can assume any product an industry affiliate claims in his system may be an accommodation purchase. Imo that is all the disclosure needed.

All: Who is responsible for what you believe? What is the great fear? That you (anyone) will be deceived? Raise your hand if you have been deceived by a reviewer because he made an accommodation purchase?

What is an "industry affiliate"? What is a fair accomadation rate? Hypothetically speaking, if a guy on the internet (youtube, forum, podcast, etc.), takes a brand out of nothing and makes it a success (hypothetical example of a guy with an analytical solid state system finding musicality with a tubed front end), shouldn't the accommodation rate be higher than 40-50 percent?

Should they get paid higher percentage, or own a percentage of a company, or a bigger flat rate amount? The guy created a lot of value for a brand. Why not be compensated more for their efforts and success?

 

[caesar]

"All: Who is responsible for what you believe? What is the great fear? That you (anyone) will be deceived? Raise your hand if you have been deceived by a reviewer because he made an accommodation purchase?"

I think people just want transparency.

...

All: Who is responsible for what you believe? What is the great fear? That you (anyone) will be deceived? Raise your hand if you have been deceived by a reviewer because he made an accommodation purchase?

 

[PYP]

Not really. They can get that from competing products. I think most reviewers are trying to do a fair evaluation.

I do not question that they are trying to do their best and be fair (but a few YouTube "reviewers" don't seem to know the basics).

My question was not answerable since I essentially asked if a reviewer receiving a reduced price might unconsciously react to the reduced pricing in a more positive sense. If there is one universal rate, then there could not be bias based upon price. If the rate differs, however, I believe my question cannot be definitively answered. My question is based upon curiosity, not animus or an assumption of collusion, etc.

Personally, I read reviews to understand trends, how technology is implemented and general awareness about certain brands, therefore there is nearly always a benefit.

As to the original topic, it seems the cheerleading derives from users or potential buyers who are excited about a particular brand or product. That happens on other sites too. Humans are a bipedal herd primate with those convenient opposable thumbs and computer keyboards. Mischief ensues.

 

[tima]

What is an "industry affiliate"?

The answer is in this thread. You should try to keep up if you want to participate. I bear you no ill will and you can find the answer here:

Has the focus of the forum shifted? Is it the marketing, promotion and cheerleading arm of selected companies? Has advertising changed the landscape?

The issue is in defining “ industry affiliation”. If someone gets 55% discounts on gear that they post positively about is that an industry affiliation? Lots of people get 10% discounts, what’s the line? If someone gets a discount or other consideration in exchange for promoting product, how...

www.whatsbestforum.com

What is a fair accomadation rate?

Again, the answer is in this thread.
Accomodation price is set by the manufacturer or distributor. Typically it is the distributor's cost from the manufacturer, 40%-50%.

Hypothetically speaking, if a guy on the internet (youtube, forum, podcast, etc.), takes a brand out of nothing and makes it a success (hypothetical example of a guy with an analytical solid state system finding musicality with a tubed front end), shouldn't the accommodation rate be higher than 40-50 percent?

Should they get paid higher percentage, or own a percentage of a company, or a bigger flat rate amount?

I am not clear what you're asking. Accomodation pricing is not based on the success of a product. It is a standardized transaction among industry members.

I think people just want transparency.

An easy to say populist response. What someone pays for an audio component is their own business, not the audio public. I already described the way this works within the industry.